<p>If Harvard or Princeton or Yale is seeking 53K from a family they must be exceedingly well off, not merely “middle class.” Harvard will seek no more than 10% from a family earning $180,000 per year. That income, incidentally, puts the family in the top 3-4% of all households in the United States.</p>
<p>A bit more context for my comments about Miami. I went to Bowling Green for undergrad, a school that is comparable in many respects, although I would say Miami is generally better. My son is at Ole Miss. I received, and I think my son is receiving, excellent educations, thanks to our own interest in learning and our good fortune in having a handful of professors who love to see their students thrive.</p>
<p>I have formed the opinion that, for an undergraduate, the most important difference between these “regular” schools and top-ranked schools is the overall strength of the student body. One individual can excel in any environment, but it’s much easier when one is not only internally-motivated, but also has the external motivation of being surrounded by other internally-motivated people.</p>
<p>That was the hardest part of excelling as an undergraduate for me, staying focused amidst a fairly large number of mediocre or apathetic students and hard partiers.</p>
<p>Because of the great fin aid at most ivies, the ivies are the budget ivies for many, many students. It all depends upon EFC.</p>
<p>jym- So sorry for the typo. Imagine mixing up UF with FSU…mon dieu!</p>
<p>My kid was full pay at an Ivy- no loans- and we are not the Gates or Perot family. I don’t want everyone to have the impression that no one pays the full tab at private schools. We were able to do this and it’s a choice we made. Many others make the same choice. Debrockman is under the impression that all the best and brightest are now choosing state universities and that the Ivy League level schools are resorting to filling the classes with foreign students and minorities on full scholarships. She has posted this in many threads over the last 6 months or so. </p>
<p>A state university would not have been a good option for my kid for many reasons. I don’t think this makes me an elitist jerk. I DO value education greatly and I believe both of my kids wound up at schools that managed to be a good fit. To me, that’s what’s important.</p>
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LOL, fauve. I am guessing you aren’t either a gator or a semihole-- oops, I mean a criminole… oops I mean a seminole. ;)</p>
<p>I always have good laugh reading the debates that erupt after any list is published. There seems to be so many of them these days, whether its the best party school, best looking students, best program in basket weaving, etc. IMHO the best school is the one that is best for you, taking into consideration the cost (dont want to come out with 100K in debt) and academic rigor (not everyone has a perfect SAT score except for everyone posting their scores on CC). Go where you think you will be successful and dont worry about where it is on some list. Definitely makes for a great debate though!</p>
<p>MomofWildChild LOTS of people value education greatly. I am one of them. I have a top 20 MBA and my husband is a physician from a state program. He turned around and scored 99th percentile on his Boards. I suspect many Hahvaad kids did not. And lots of those same academically minded but practical people are making the same decision that my family has made. Particularly in this economy. Lots of moms and dads are saying it makes NO sense to pay 50+k per year for their student interested in studying classical literature, when if they are lucky, they will be underemployed. Especially not for undergraduate school. So yes, those of us who DID study economics are looking at acceptance to top grad schools and 4-year graduation rates as we help our children make these decisions. Miami is very small for a state school. It is virtually ALL undergrad and most of the classes are taught by full professors. It places extremely high numbers of kids in quality grad schools. I would give you the list of names of Admissions officers of the programs who are calling us about our son, but I don’t think they would appreciate it. Confidentially, several have all told me that they are concerned about their ability to compete for higher income kids who are not trust fund babies. If you researched this topic you would see it is becoming a bigger and bigger concern for the high dollar schools who are trying to be creative in getting around it. Columbia just sent us a brochure on what they are doing to try to ameliorate their issues in recruiting upper middle kids. American students with exceptional math skills who also have very strong leadership skills are not exactly growing on trees. Mine is going to a great school where they will give him a great scholarship and get him through college debt free so he can afford grad school.</p>
<p>“Florida State University has built its popularity in football recently, but also features one of the best motion picture schools in the country.”</p>
<p>The Fiske list looks ok to me. It’s accurate too: Burt Reynolds played on FSU’s football team when he attended FSU, and he was in motion pictures!</p>
<p>Go NOLES!</p>
<p>@debrockman – there is nothing new in your post. The state schools have always been full of really bright, motivated students. Many families for a variety of reasons are not willing to pay for the cost of a college education at a private school, Ivy League or otherwise. This was true 30 years ago when I was applying to college and it is true today. In fact, the middle class initiative that was started by Harvard, (not Hahvaad), to make a Harvard education more available to the middle class, is only a few years old. Before this initiative Harvard was even more out of reach for the middle class.</p>
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<p>That’s hardly confidential information. Admissions officers at places like Duke are very forthcoming about this issue. $50,000 per year in tuition is an exorbitant price and out of reach for many families that fall into the category of full pay.</p>
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<p>Of course they didn’t. How many people score in the 99th percentile on the boards? I don’t think Harvard claims to turn out students who will score 99th percentile on the boards.</p>
<p>Yes, deb, I have read about your and your husband’s credentials the last 50 times you posted them. Congrats on being so smart and practical.</p>
<p>Perhaps your stellar son who is being recruited by Columbia should submit an application. I’m sure since they want him so badly they will find a way to make it work! Oh, sorry I forgot. You don’t want him going to school with all the foreigners and low lifes who don’t have the foresight to attend a state school. </p>
<p>I can assure you that there was no shortage of high income/non trust fund students at either the Ivy my son attended or Rice, my daughter’s school. There was quite a range of students- and some of them were even from the US! (P.S. My English major son has a good job!)</p>
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<p>Fiske is factually incorrect about this claim, at least with respect to OOS students.
Here are the Tuitiion, Fees, Room and Board annual totals for incoming OOS full-time Freshman (in liberal arts programs) at Big Ten schools:</p>
<p>Minnesota 24,245
Wisconsin 31,927
Iowa 32,044
Ohio State 32,784
Indiana 35,607
Purdue 35,742
Penn State 36,144
Illinois 36,522
Michigan State 37,442
Michigan 45,774</p>
<p>As both MN and WI are both cheaper and generally higher ranked, they would be even better bargains, would they not?</p>
<p>In-state numbers look like this:
Iowa 15,748
Wisconsin 16,677
Indiana 16,946
Purdue 18,190
Ohio State 18,600
Michigan State 19,542
Minnesota 19,945
Michigan 21,610
Illinois 22,380
Penn State 24,280</p>
<p>so IA is cheapest in this context, but not overwhelmingly so.</p>
<p>Pea, the difference is that we are in the worst job market in 25 years, making the economic value of an Ivy League education lower than it has been in 25 years. And the cost has dropped for everyone except the upper middle class. So the upper middle class is making “different” choices. That is an economic principle you might recognize 
The opportunity cost of the Ivies is too high. Heck. Our valedictorian last year went to IUPUI. He went there at no cost. He was offered an amazing research opportunity in their med school. He was given automatic acceptance to med school with a 3.6 GPA. His dad was a doctor. The state schools are pulling out all the stops to get the best and brightest. And with the upper middle class, they are succeeding. All you have to do is look at the student body at Miami and see who is going there. There, and Purdue and IU, etc. Why do you think the recruiters like these schools so much? Because these schools have huge numbers of amazing kids. And if you can be amazing at a school of 40,000 kids, you can probably be amazing anywhere.</p>
<p>Debrockman, I’ve read your assertions – many times - about how bright, upper-middle class students are staying away from the Ivies in droves, and you’re just not convincing. Are we supposed to believe that highly talented upper-middle-class students don’t account for any of the staggering increase in applications at Ivy institutions in the past few years? Are they all trust fund babies and internationals? They aren’t in my school system, where upper-middle class kids are applying in droves.</p>
<p>You’re thrilled with the quality of Miami-Ohio, and your son is excited about the education he’ll receive there debt-free. Why isn’t that enough for you? Your son is choosing a great public institution, in part because the Ivies are too expensive for you. That doesn’t mean the Ivies are doing it wrong. It doesn’t denigrate the value of an Ivy education, or the quality of Ivy student bodies, in any way. It means we’re lucky enough to live in a country with a diverse higher education system , where many talented kids can still get an excellent education at a reduced cost.</p>
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Totally wrong (except for the part about trees-- they grow in houses, apartments and condos). Any data to support that opinion? </p>
<p>BTW, one of the many math competitions/organizations: <a href=“American Mathematics Competitions | Mathematical Association of America”>American Mathematics Competitions | Mathematical Association of America;
<p>Momofwildchild, it really bothers you when someone proves to you that that big Ivy education really wasn’t all that necessary for either quality or cost, doesn’t it? Perhaps because you are an education snob. I have heard you make fun of midwesterners, southerners, any kid who would consider Miami and on and on and on. I’m glad that your family spent the cost of a luxury home on your children’s undergraduate education. I’m also glad that you are not responsible for my family finances. I suspect you must be working for the federal government. If you’re not, you should consider it. You have the perfect credentials. A complete disrespect for “the little people” and irresponsibility with money. Perfect!
That aside, you need to do a little research. What I have said on this Board is no big secret. The Ivies are losing the upper middle class.</p>
<p>How is a person’s choice to put their money into their child’s education irresponsible? If a person/family has the funds to pay for a private education, why shouldn’t they? If anything- this is spurs on the economy. Is this a problem?</p>
<p>Spending money a family doesnt have, or going into huge debt for an education that may/may not lead to a job that can help repay the loans-- now that is irresponsible.</p>
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<p>This has always been true, it’s nothing new. Bright, talented, hard working kids at state schools and yes, the recruiters like these schools very much. But the state school option isn’t right for everybody, just like Harvard isn’t right for everybody. If my daughter had really wanted to go to the UW, I would have been OK with it. But she didn’t, it was an intuitive decision, she just didn’t like the feel of the campus. Am I supposed to send her there anyway just to prove I’m not a snob? A school like Harvard felt like the right place for her to be. She didn’t get into Harvard but if she had we would have tried very hard to send her there.</p>
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<p>Necessary for who? The kid involved? Maybe for the individual kid involved it was the best choice.</p>
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<p>I do work for the federal government. How did you know?</p>
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<p>DebRockman, you are NOT little. 250K a year is NOT little. The average American family’s income is around 50k. You make SIX TIMES as much. </p>
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<p>^ That’s the end of the story.</p>