EFC- the shock of my life

condor30 · July 9, 2007, 2:39pm

mom60 - that’s right. not every college requires the profile. i think i recall that baylor’s info. said that they calculate with federal methodology only. it might be helpful to start noting on a spreadsheet who uses only federal metholodogy in calculating their fa packages. other than contacting the colleges, is there a good resource for gathering that info.? one of the college websites perhaps? maybe peterson’s college search or princeton review? i can’t recall if the fiske guide or peterson’s competitive colleges notes this or not.

there really might be some good opportunities for merit aid for her at out of state publics…especially, those in nearby states, who hope to attract bright students to their universities (luring them away from the student’s in-state publics).

curmudgeon’s posts on merit aid would be helpful.

i can suggest a few schools that you might check out…
case western reserve, univ. of miami, hendrix, tulane, baylor, univ. of houston, univ. of texas a & m, texas tech, univ. of tulsa, univ. of nebraska-lincoln, univ. of south carolina, univ. of central florida, wichita state, southwestern univ.

i think curmudgeon mentioned a premium service that gave lots of useful data…does anyone remember what that one was. was it usnwr?

if she hasn’t taken the ACT, give that a try too. she may score higher on it than on SAT. any increase in score may mean more merit aid $$$'s. score choice is available with ACT…she only sends her best score.

good luck, emeraldkitty…we’re all cheering you on in the merit aid hunt check college websites…some have merit aid calculators on them.

Midwest_Dad · July 9, 2007, 2:48pm

In my experience, private schools that only use the Federal methodology (FAFSA only) tend to “gap” the financial aid. Qualifying for more aid is cold comfort if the school doesn’t then give the aid. Your best bet might be for private colleges that give merit aid, especially those where your child would be in the top of the college’s applicant pool.

somemom · July 9, 2007, 3:36pm

A few years ago, my D had a package from Baylor, that with the merit aid matched her local public package for $ we would spend. I did a spread sheet with UCs, Baylor, etc and only counted tuition, R&B, books, then added in my own travel calculations for each place in it’s various distances (none of the other costs of the COA) and most of them came in a reasonable range apart, as I recall the FAFSA ones were all within a few thousand dollars of each other. It may be that they gap, but that if you get the merit aid, then you are no longer gapped

mythmom · July 9, 2007, 3:51pm

EmeraldKity4: NYS publics only charge $11,000 in tuition to OOS. They might give merit aid because geographical diversity is terrible. There a4re so many to choose from that one might appeal to her where she qualifies for aid. Unfortunately, most are COLD.

condor30 · July 9, 2007, 4:03pm

you might want to check out the ctcl site…colleges that change lives.

also - here’s a link to naia member schools (smaller colleges):

<a href=“http://naia.cstv.com/member-services/about/members.htm[/url]”>http://naia.cstv.com/member-services/about/members.htm</a>

emeraldkity4 · July 9, 2007, 4:21pm

thanks for all the reminders and info
unfortunately- college touring is not the most pressing priority I have right now- just the most distracting as it seems to be one of the things I at least have a little influence on-
Its good to know about private schools that don’t require PROFILE
unfortunately going by what the admissions said at Lewis and Clark this last spring, it sounds like they are going to be using the PROFILE this fall.
But getting our house reassessed is one of the things I have to work on ASAP as appealing is time limited after increase in assessment.

there just is not enough hours in the day- I would rather be outside digging in the dirt
At least I don’t have a * real* job ;)

emeraldkity4 · July 9, 2007, 4:39pm

This also reminds me of something I tried to bring up to an aquaintance ( she is in my book group) earlier- she has a son the same age as D, and is confident that since they don’t have a high income, that they will get good aid.
However- they live in the same neighborhood we do- * and<a href=“this%20was%20the%20shocker%20cause%20we%20are%20no%20where%20near%20what%20they%20have%20accomplished”>/i</a> They have sacrificed over the years and paid off their house!
( we just thought she didn’t have a car & had to bum rides because she was really broke- but they had been making double house payments)

Most of our book group has kids the same age- and naturally the talk often turns to college-only a couple of us, have kids old enough to attend/graduate/be interested in college & the other two- didn’t qualify or apply for any aid, so they aren’t up on the latest.

Ive tried to stick my $.02 in although I have a feeling that possibly because neither my husband or I have graduated from college- which is now that I think about it- unique in our group- of about 8 others, they all have BAs and so do their spouses if not phds.( they also are all married- currently which is also kind of interesting as we have been together for years- and every one is still with their same husbands- unusual anyway compared to my other groups of friends)
that they don’t realize the knowledge I have gleaned from CC and other sources and I’d like to think it is a lot more current and accurate than what they remember from their college years.
FOr example, they are mostly quite convinced that all you have to do to get instate tuition, is move to the state and attend school for a year.
Seriously.
Maybe have to register to vote.
They also believe that in order to file as independent for the school,a student just has to declare herself as such and her parents can’t take her off on their taxes.
I can’t really say what things used to be like 20 or 30 years ago, but I don’t have 5,000+ posts for nothing! :)

mythmom · July 9, 2007, 4:46pm

You go girl!

bethievt · July 9, 2007, 5:38pm

I think it used to be easier to become independent as a student back in my day. The only place I heard it was easy now was Evergreen State, a wonderful school in WA.

CountingDown · July 9, 2007, 6:20pm

I went independent in the early 1980s.

Requirements:
– file taxes as individual/parents can’t claim you
– do not live at home more than six weeks of the year
– do not receive more than $750 support (including room, board, food, etc.) from parent per year

It was possible to do this at a state flagship while working 20 hours a week at a minimum wage job, along with Pell (my family’s EFC was $0, and believe me, that MEANT zero) and small GSL (now Stafford) loans. I gained independent status the fall of my junior year. I got full Pell, a $450 NDSL (low-interest federal need-based loans), and some Stafford. I wouldn’t recommend it, as it was a hard and lonely road – working students were not part of the lexicon at that school, either among the students or the profs.

calmom · July 9, 2007, 6:37pm

EK, not all colleges will use the assessed value of your house, so it might not be a big factor for financial aid. My daughter’s college uses the Federal Housing index – if you have been in the house for awhile with no major improvements, this can result in a much lower assessment. You can find this here:
<a href=“http://www.finaid.org/calculators/federalhousing.phtml[/url]”>http://www.finaid.org/calculators/federalhousing.phtml</a>

If that figure is lower than your assessed value, I would suggest that you run the figures again online with the “Minimum Derived Value” and see where that leaves you.

Sounds like your book club friends are in for a rude awakening down the line. My poor son supported himself for 3 years and still didn’t qualify for financial aid when he went back to college at age 23, even though he had lived in different cities from me and I hadn’t claimed him as a dependent after age 20. Rather perversely, his sister started college that year and I got the benefit of the 2-in-college increased financial aid award – so his sister’s grant was increased by $3600 (the amount of his in-state tuition). I offered him the money but he wouldn’t take it – some kind of pride thing about managing everything on his own. So he was independent, and I got the extra money.

Fortunately for him, he is 24 now and after spending all his money this year, has a Pell grant coming next year, plus both need based and merit money for next year, plus an Americorps benefit – so he will have close to a free ride for his senior year and says he will come out debt free in the end. Meanwhile, I have the bite of the extra expense for next year for his sister. Scrambling now, because my d’s college doesn’t give the financial aid info for continuing students until July, but the payment for fall semester is due August 1 with hefty fees for late payments.

higherlead · July 9, 2007, 7:21pm

I love hearing homeowners whine about how unfair it is. We never owned a house and so none of our wealth is sheltered. Why should anyone have a couple hundred thousands of dollars in assets they aren’t expected to tap into for college?

calmom · July 9, 2007, 9:43pm

higherlead, you can’t spend a home and you have to live somewhere. I don’t know about EK, but I live an an area where home values are inflated and my home is very small and on the lower end of the spectrum for home values in my area, so I don’t have the option of moving to smaller house nearby – there isn’t anything cheaper/smaller. I know that because of my income-to-debt ratio I do not qualify for a home equity loan – and by “debt” I mean what I already pay on the mortgage – I simply don’t make enough money to qualify to borrow more. So borrowing on my equity is not an option. Moving away to a less expensive area is not an option… my job is HERE – I can’t very well give that up, or I would have no income at all.

I don’t think EK is whining, and I’m not whining either – but when someone has bought a home relatively cheaply and lived in it for a number of years – and maybe the home is kind of run down because its older and the family doesn’t have money to put into fancy renovations – and then the market skyrockets and all of the sudden on paper the house becomes a huge asset – but in real life the homeowner simply has more expenses (necessary repair, increased taxes) and no more money… it isn’t easy to have a system that adds $10 or $20K to their EFC because of the house they live in.

So yes, a homeowner is financially stronger than the renter – but no, they don’t have a whole lot more in available spending money. If a person has $500 left over each month after other expenses are paid – then it doesn’t matter whether they own a house or not, the maximum amount of money they can borrow is whatever they can get with a $500 monthly payment. The value of the house is whatever it is worth at the time it is sold – as long as the family remains living in the house, the assessed or market value is a paper figure, but it can fluctuate down as well as up.

higherlead · July 9, 2007, 11:45pm

I live in an expensive metro area too but made the decision to save and invest in something other than real estate. Because I have cash/securities I am expected to spend it but the home owner wants a pass. Trust me I live in as small and crummy a dwelling as you do. The schools give you a better deal than they give a guy like me.

emeraldkity4 · July 10, 2007, 3:34am

I am interested in what your market is like that encouraged you to put, what I assume was enough for a deposit on a home, into paper instead.

If it was in a retirement account- schools won’t look at it & if it is in your primary home- schools that just use FAFSA wont look at that either.
I saw Gone with the Wind- I knew what to invest in
( we don’t have any curtains either)

I would say though that in many ways we have been very very lucky.

Because
we worried about money- even to the point where we moved to the city to have better access ( HA!)
to public transportation ( I laugh because Seattles public transit is not so userfriendly)
more jobs, a neighborhood that was cheap because it was very blue collar in an era when everyone had an MBA, but where our income and education level, was more of a fit, than in the suburban neighborhood where we had been renting.

We had friends who were moving to the suburbs, even ( what was then) rural and building huge houses, or even reasonable size houses.
We didn’t have the upfront cash to do that, so we bought a starter house- hoping we could fix it up ourselves.

I guess we could have rented- and taken our down payment and invested it- ( like in some nice furniture) but then it might have vanished like a great deal of our retirement fund has.
( although our retirement fund wouldn’t have counted on PROFILE)
At least with a house, you still have something to live in, even if the value drops.

We did have to downsize our standard of living, although our mortgage payment was more than our rent- we couldn’t have afforded to buy the rental, even though the landlord offered to sell it to us ( which made me cry for a long time)

So we were lucky or at least benefited from our foresight, because even when my H had over a year of unemployment- being in the city meant there were lots of odd jobs and we paid the bills by mowing grass and baby sitting . We still had a place to live and even though our groceries and medical bills ended up on a credit card- we still paid the house taxes.

Its ironic, because our lack of money which fueled our original choices, has worked out pretty well for us.

Our friends who lived in the burbs- had bigger & newer houses its true- but those houses haven’t appreciated as much. Small houses, apparently even less than 1000sq ft and over 100 years old, are so scarce that they appreciated faster per sq ft than anything else., and keep doing so.

Small houses in the city, that are close to jobs given the price of gas- are a " hot" commodity. Who woulda thunk that a neighborhood known for its fishermen and lutefisk would be “hip”, and flannel shirts & work boots, a fashion trend? :D

mythmom · July 10, 2007, 7:48am

Well, you have to catch a break sometimes Emeraldkity. Good for you! Sounds like a pretty functional reasoning process you’ve got going for you.

astrophysicsmom · July 10, 2007, 8:42am

It did seem ironic to me that had you could have 2 different families, making about the same amount of money. One buys a modest home and lives frugally so that they can save money for their kids’ education. The other family lives the high life, renting a snazzy apartment uptown, buying a new car every year, wearing designer clothes…and not saving a dime. At FAFSA time, it just seems ironic that the 1st family (who does what they are “supposed” to) comes out with a much higher EFC than the 2nd family.

reflectivemom · July 10, 2007, 9:26am

Astrophysics mom - I understand your point. I have a problem with almost all the “rules” regarding financial aid at these colleges.

To be perfectly clear - I don’t have a problem with the “concept” of financial aid being awarded for those who are truly “needy” and have parents who are unable to provide for their children’s college do to the lack of education/ability. I just see no way for it to be “fairly” decided who will receive such aid.

There are many parents on this list who received the most elite educations and are certainly capable of earning high salaries but chose other careers with more limited salaries - perhaps because they were more personally rewarding - yet, their children receive financial aid.

Some earn modest salaries - yet those salaries have guaranteed longevity, retirement, benefits; while others chose higher riskier jobs with no longevity or retirement thus must save for such. The modest salaried individual receives significant aid while the other must use their savings for college. And, for those who argue that “retirement savings” is not included in aid calculations - the amount of savings most individuals can protect through “qualified plans” is very modest - nothing like guaranteed in retirment programs.

For example, the discussion of home values. There is absolutely no “fair” way to consider this item. As one poster commented, “you can’t spend a home”. However, this poster can be awarded significant financial aid while keeping his/her home - then after the kid(s) graduate - sell the home and use that money for other purposes. The same “income” saved must be used for college and is thus unavailable later for medical needs, retirement, etc.

And, then there are those who live totally irresponsibly “deciding” to spend all their money saving save nothing - as astrophysics describes. Their kids are rewarded with financial aid. Yet, the parent who saves and “decides” they cannot or will not fund an “elite” education - their kids receive nothing. Why hold children accountable for some decisions of their parents and not others?

Why do parents of twins receive more “aid” than parents of two children spaced four years apart? Supposedly, “financial aid” depends upon parents saving for their children’s education - before and after college - not paying out of “current earnings”. The total costs will be the same or more for the parents with spaced children.

I could go on and on - we’ve all seen the posts.

There is just no way that such a system can be “fair”.

northeastmom · July 10, 2007, 10:20am

astrophysicsmom, the first family does not have a higher EFC on the fafsa, b/c home equity is not taken into consideration on the fafsa, if I remember correctly. The profile is another story.

Reflectivemom, the real problem is that the cost of sending a kid to college for public and private schools, has spiraled out of control, and there does not seem to be any end in site. Eventually, all but the rich and top % of our brightest students, who on a full ride, will be priced out. It is just a matter of time. Frankly, this has already happened to one of my son’s friends (from a middle class family). He would love to go to college, but he does not have transportation to get to a cc, and the parents are in debt from kiddo #1. They hope to send this child after they recoop financially from child #1. He is currently working a low paying job for his second year. His parents have sold their home, and moved to a less expensive home. H now commutes over 1.25 hours in each direction daily.

reflectivemom · July 10, 2007, 12:25pm

Here’s a link to a post by curmudgeon who addressed the inequity of financial aid - and he did so much more eloquently than I.

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2696708&highlight=dentist+aid#post2696708[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2696708&highlight=dentist+aid#post2696708</a>

EFC- the shock of my life

CONNECT WITH US