It would be really interesting if a college were to publish the socioeconomic data on the families of its applicant pools, as well as the information that can be garnered about the admitted students. Do any of the “elite” colleges do that?
@QuantMech The Harvard Crimson publishes some information. http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/admissions.html
Thanks, bouders. That report is very illuminating. It is especially interesting to me that the average SAT score of the admitted students continued to climb into the top 1% in terms of family income. In the survey, the Harvard freshmen were stratified by family income well beyond the top income bracket of the College Board studies that have been published. It would be interesting to know whether the continuing increase in SAT scores is general across the population, or whether it applies only to Harvard students.
There is a very rich data mine in the link that bouders provided (admittedly, from surveys).
The element that is missing is the corresponding analysis of the family incomes and other characteristics of the applicant pool.
Maybe that’s a different thread.
I asked the veteran Princeton admissions officer what he DOESN’T want to read in an essay. He had been a very PC guy up until that point. He then went on a rant about stories describing service trips and stories about helping handicapped individuals. He never wanted to see another one. You could see many of the kids/parents in the group turn to each other with gasps. I read an article where the AO never wanted to read another essay on torn ACL’s. I hadn’t thought of that one, but then I asked the 7 seniors on my daughter’s tennis team what they wrote their essays on–2 of them said “torn ACL’s”!
I think this is probably true, and it’s kind of why I started this thread. I can easily imagine a parent saying, “Don’t write about those silly origami earrings; write about that service trip you did.” Or about the doctor that you shadowed. Or the research you did (in your uncle’s lab). Or about how much you practiced the violin so you could win that music prize. Or about how you got the highest SAT in your school’s history. Or, I guess, about that torn ACL.
We all have ideas about how college admission should be. But this is about how they are, and about how a student who wants to go to an elite college can put his or her best foot forward. I’m convinced that one element of this is some kind of AND that grabs the attention of a reviewer. It can be large or small, and I think it could even be something in an essay. Yesterday I asked my son how many of the people he knew at Yale had some kind of AND like that. “All of them,” he said, and then he ticked off a bunch of them. I think that was probably an overstatement, but I think all applicants to elite schools should be thinking about what in their application might set them apart as memorable.
@Parent1337 - Yes, I can imagine that.
I confess that as the parent of a non-verbal autistic child, I myself gasped. I am grateful for the high school and college students who came into our house and helped us in the years my non-verbal autistic child was growing up, and several reported that this was a life-changing experience for them as they got to know our entire family including “twice exceptional” siblings on the AP/honors track… I am also grateful to parents who gave their children permission to spend time in our home and sometimes even transported their children, since there is lots of stigma directed towards families with special needs individuals in our affluent community.
Quite a few of these students wrote about their experiences in their college, graduate school, or medical school applications and I myself (and a supervising professional) wrote a few LOR’s. Most siblings also seem to write about their experiences somewhere on their applications, even if only in a section that asks if there is “anything else” an admissions committee might like to know.
I suppose it is good for students to know that although this might be an experience that could be valuable to them in college and later in their careers, it is probably not something that would make their admissions essays memorable. But, the experiences of students we have known also suggest that this type of essay will not sink an application, either. It is however possible that a student writing about their own disability might sabotage their application.
My own kids are not big on self-promotion, and I suspect that any “AND” in their college applications came across as awards they won, and in their teacher and GC recommendations. The teachers and GC’s did send home requests for parental input and here is where I think an immigrant family might be at a disadvantage.
I think that post #205 hits the nail squarely on the head!
My post #202 was just in response to PG’s #198, not trying to divert the thread.
@Hunt, I think this is exactly write, and what I tell applicants all the time. The vast majority of applicants to “elite” schools are qualified, and the vast majority of those who are qualified get rejected. It’s a numbers game, and unless you can set yourself apart in some way, it’s a lottery.
In my experience the AND that a student needs very much depends on the high school that the student attends. In our high school a high ranked, high SAT student that has any prestigious EC outside the school or national award is pretty much guaranteed acceptance to at least a couple of the very top schools especially Harvard, Cornell and MIT. Never Stanford though. Some of the ECs that in this page are deemed dime a dozen are enough assuming of course high rank and high SAT. No essay and no amazing EC ever swayed any top college unless the student was also very highly ranked. Knowing a bit about the kids and looking at naviance it is very transparent who makes it from our high school. I understand that’s not the case elsewhere and especially in high schools with a high number of excellent student.
I’d be curious what Hunt’s son named as ANDs.
In a sense, Hunt, it’s a moving target and can vary based on the major interests. That poli sci kid who worked on a campaign (even xeroxing) can be a step ahead of the one who says she reads the newspaper and, “I think it would be interesting.” (As in, “AND she actually did something with this interest.”) And then, not just doing, but how you present it. It’s not an AND checklist (he interned in a lab, she worked in the governor’s office,) it’s what the sum total shows about this kid, his thinking and decision making, his strengths, behind the stats. Holistic.
If you want kids who are activated, can id a good opp beyond what the hs offers, can go get involved, show up over time and learn something- and the elites do- it’s not armchair. If you want insightful kids, self aware, balanced in their self assessment, yes, you look to the writing (not just the essay) to show that.
Imo, the problem with the service trips isn’t the doing. (Lots of school or church kids raise the money as a group and go do something helpful, here or abroad. Lots of kids whose families immigrated have ties to their foreign communities and go back to do good work.) The issue a few years ago was kids whose parents pay exorbitant amounts, then claim they have so much compassion but did nothing else locally, for others, that required effort, commitment over time. Second issue is what the actual writing reveals. Eg, the kid views everything through her privilege or the kid can show (not just tell) she both had some impact and learned something about others and herself? I mean, those “somethings” that adcoms are looking for.
Memorable and “standing out” are not always about the activity itself. It’s not what PG calls the kid who juggles on a unicycle. It’s not building a nuclear generator in your garage or winning something no one else does, on a national level. It’s not being an Olympic athlete.
At least for one kid at Harvard I know the AND was two summers at Circus Smirkus. But I actually think more important than WHAT you do, is how you communicate its importance to you. It doesn’t need to be in the main essay - it may be in a supplement, or a teacher or outside recommendation.
Yet we have all read about and personally know students who were admitted to elite schools with pedestrian essay topics. Sure, maybe their treatment of the topic was better than average, but admissions obviously overlooked the unoriginal nature of the basic idea. For example, two friends’ kids wrote about an overseas service project and got into an elite university, and my son’s best friend wrote about helping special ed kids at the high school and was accepted to several Ivies. None of the three had any great honors or awards or outside EC recognitions besides being National Merit Commended. The “how I overcame adversity” essay is one we see work for those URM’s who get into every Ivy. Surely that has to be old hat by now too, since for a long while that quality seemed to be the thing schools wanted to see in their applicants. And on the athletic recruits sub-forum, parents said their kids wrote some of those trite sports essays and it didn’t matter one whit. (The comments about topics were in answer to a parent whose kid was warned by a coach not to write his essay about his sport.) So I get annoyed when adcoms go on those rants, because they don’t seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.
You’re making some assumptions. That URMs always write about adversity and what came through in the service essays and the rest of their apps. As mathmom said, it’s how you communicate.
I agree with the comment made earlier (by blossom, I think) that it’s unlikely that the essay makes a significant difference in admission for any but a very small number of applicants. Where I think it might make a difference is in helping distinguish an applicant from a lot of similar applicants.
Every piece matters in that sort of competition. You don’t want to be expendable. Sorry. Imagine the sorting task these elite schools have. The wise kids are informed, cautious and at least a bit strategic. They think. They can’t control final results but that doesn’t mean they can lag in one section.
@lookingforward you’ve written some great stuff in your last few posts. I particularly liked this:
To add to what hunt said in post #214:
My oldest son went to a private school in manhattan. As part of end- of-junior year college admissions day, the college counseling dept invited admissions officers from over 20 leading colleges to campus. In the morning, they split us up into small groups of 5-6 to meet with an admission officer who would lead a mock admissions committee meeting to select an applicant from 3 possible choices: one admit, one rejection, one wait list. My son, husband and I were separated. I was in the meeting with a leading LAC; my son was with a top 10 Midwestern private u; my husband with his alma mater, an ivy.
It was illuminating. We were given actual apps (names and all identifying references concealed), including transcripts and LORs. The kids were nearly identical in grades…outstanding students. For my husband’s university, the kid with the best grades of all…a straight A student, not one blemish, outstanding recs & scores, interesting ECs but boring essay…rejected; the kid from a private school with some Bs, but outstanding LORs/ scores and a beautifully crafted, introspective, interesting essay…admitted; the kid with all As/ high scores, and a sweet, genuine essay…wait listed. The person who had paper seemed the hardest working, best GPA also appeared the most trite and boring in her essay= failure for admission. Everyone in the room was on the same page and then found out from the AO that their comments in deliberation matched what actually happened IRL. And the same was true in my and my son’s group. It’s that transparent.
It was obvious that this was the point that the admission counselors wanted us to get. And boy, was it eye-opening. Even in the letters of recommendation, all it took was one line for it be out-of-this-world wonderful. In fact, that line was underlined presumably by the AO when initially reading it.
My own son’s very limited sample size at Princeton is similar. One teammate is a bee keeper. Another is working on his pilot’s license. One of his new (non athlete) roommates builds vintage amplifiers, etc, etc. As mentioned a number of times, it doesn’t have to be “fixed Bill Gates’ computer” or “balanced Warren Buffett’s checkbook”. Just something tangible and interesting that I think shows a spirit of intellectual curiosity.
RenaissanceMom’s post #217 is illustrative of the advantage that some private school students have. First the counseling department invited over 20 admissions officers to the school, and they came–at the end of the students junior year. People were able to meet with them in small groups. With 2 parents and a student, the families were able to get very close-up looks at 3 schools.
When it comes to picking the students to be admitted: I have no qualms about a student from a private school being admitted with some B’s, while a straight A student from a public school is rejected. Schools grading standards differ widely, and the private school student might well have had a 4.0 UW at the public school.
The family has seen 3 files, including the essays, that lead to admission to a top school, and has also seen examples of the files of applicants who were rejected or waitlisted. This constitutes a remarkable amount of inside information!
When it comes to writing a “beautifully crafted, introspective, interesting” essay, the private school milieu probably offers a considerable advantage, to begin with. Seeing such an essay, or having one’s parents see such an essay gives a great idea of “what is wanted.”
Some of the “top” students from public schools are probably as shallow as their essays suggest. But probably some of them have simply never seen the kind of essay that the top colleges actually want, and could write one, if they had an idea what the genre actually is supposed to be.
When it’s suggested that students should do the work to find out what the colleges want–it’s quite different to show up for a session that has been organized for you, to convey exactly that, and to figure it out entirely on your own.
I don’t mean to dump on RenaissanceMom or the private school in Manhattan. The school offers an advantage that many of us would probably give our children if we had the means to do so. The school probably has quite selective admissions from the get-go, which makes it worthwhile for the admissions officers to visit there.