Elite Admissions: Finding the "AND"

Parents Forum
161

I am pretty certain that I actually get it, Pizzagirl. Who could oppose admitting likable applicants to a college?

I just don’t agree with elements of the prevailing admissions philosophy at a few places. That’s different from not understanding what they are–although sometimes it would be helpful to parents of current and upcoming applicants, to have more specific details.

What I have gleaned from CC over time is that there are some things that it is generally disadvantageous to include in an application, that might be included by a great applicant who is actually very likable, but who does not have the advantage of a private college counselor or a school guidance counselor who understands the nature of the applicant pool.

Something that might seem to the student and the school guidance counselor as an unusual and good topic to write about, based on local experiences (e.g., a brief stint of volunteering in another part of the world), could be viewed by the admissions committees as overworked and trite. Which is not to say that an essay of that type might not work, just that it would need to be exceptionally carefully crafted.

I’d like to see the playing field leveled a bit, when that could be done at no cost. I am guessing that private admissions counselors have some idea of what is done by applicants “all the time” and might occasionally steer a student away from writing about that, when the student has other ideas that would work better. Most students don’t have this advantage.

If a great student–who is very likable–could be prevented from inadvertently tripping the lever for the admissions trap door, that would be a positive, in my opinion.

162

If I were offering advice to applicants, I would certainly advise them to applying in accord with the prevailing philosophies at various places. There is no point in bucking the system, at the application stage.

However, on the CC forum, I think it is worthwhile to write about what should be the case (in our various opinions) as opposed to what is actually the case.

163

"I’d like to see the playing field leveled a bit, when that could be done at no cost. "

The very fact that adcoms are no longer impressed by the “my parents paid $5k for me to build a home in Guatemala” represents a leveling of the playing field.

164

“I just don’t agree with elements of the prevailing admissions philosophy at a few places. That’s different from not understanding what they are–although sometimes it would be helpful to parents of current and upcoming applicants, to have more specific details.”

You seem to want a list. Say this. Don’t say this. Egyptology yes or no. Video gaming yes or no.

165

I don’t think there is a “good” list and a “bad” list. But I do think there are a few things that might inadvertently tick off admissions committee members, and it would be good to avoid them. The example of building a home in Guatemala is an interesting one. I don’t know how the trips to Central America to work on service projects started, but around here, they are comparatively new and primarily run by churches, without the $5K cost to the student participants. From my vantage point, it seems that the broadening of participation in this type of activity is correlated with its no longer being impressive, and not the price tag. The topic has become too common.

166

C’mon, it’s narrow minded naivete that dis-impresses. Go ahead and do charitable works. Of course. Just consider how best to craft your tale, how to show the attributes they seek- over the hs years and in your app.

Yes, there is some Darwinism, when it comes to the uber elites. Of course, considering they have 20X the apps as spots. One can want it all to be his version of nicey nicey, but it is success to the fittest, as the college views them, holistically, in consideration of the school’s needs, wants, and knowledge of what works. The purposeful, clear thinking, determined, activated, etc, etc, kids stand a better chance.

An elite admit is something of a partnership for the four years. Not a gift.

And the thread is morphing away from its original intent. I hope we don’t need to parse this message.

167

I think that it matters less what you write about than what you actually have to say.

Trite and overworked: how building houses in Guatemala taught me the importance of doing good for others, and broadened my experience of different cultures.

Interesting and refreshing: why I wanted to go build houses in Guatemala in the first place (aspiring architect? future immigration lawyer working with Central American refugees?) and how this trip either confirmed me in my aspirations or made me want to change my path.

The first topic sounds like someone whose parents signed them up for the trip and who wasn’t really sure why they were there. The second topic sounds like a kid with a questioning mind and a direction in life.

Mind you, I’m not saying the first essay is a death knell or anything. It’s just nothing that adcoms haven’t heard before. It’s not going to impress anybody or make you stand out. I would hope that adcoms would not actually ding a candidate for the Guatemalan house-building thing, but I would be surprised if a trite, boring essay about Guatemalan house-building did any more for a candidate than a trite, boring essay about babysitting or volunteering at the animal shelter.

168

Not many care about all those teams. Only kids playing at the highest level make the cut. Everyone else is someone who also played an EC. And as you know, ECs are many.

169

@texaspg, I was responding to this

I think perhaps you and I agree that recruited athletes have a substantial advantage in admissions and that non-recruited athletes simply have a nice EC. What I was disagreeing with was the idea that all it takes to be recruited is to be on the top team in an applicant’s state. Numerically it just doesn’t wash.

170

An applicant from a school that does not send a lot of students to “top” colleges might well think that it would be interesting and unique to write about building a house in Guatemala, especially if the student is advised by a typical high school guidance counselor at the school.

In the US broadly, it is not at all common for a high school student to go to Guatemala (or anywhere else in Central America) to build a house. So a student from anywhere within a broad swath of the US might well think that the trip constitutes an AND in itself. This is not necessarily narrow-minded; it just reflects inexperience with the range of opportunities that students have in some communities. The level of sophistication that students attain while in high school is quite strongly influenced by their environment, in my experience.

A student who has been advised by a private admissions counselor probably realizes that the trip is not an AND in itself. Perhaps it could be made into an AND with a really well-crafted essay, if the admissions staffer had not seen quite a few of those already during the same week. A private admissions counselor would almost certainly mention the need to come across as a person with the desired set of attributes–and the trip might still wind up as a moderate positive, rather than a true AND.

Does anyone else have an opinion on whether some of the top schools act more Darwinian in selection than others? I am thinking, for example, about what might have prompted Harvard’s short-lived effort to encourage the undergraduates to be kinder to each other.

171

@sue22 - I am not disagreeing with you on anything, I am disagreeing with whoever that ex admissions officer was.

I have met or know of many kids who have attended or attending most of the top schools. I read profiles of admitted kids. I can safely state that a many of them never even played for their high school, let alone go to state level.

OTOH, I do know those who played sports who made it to Ivies. They were mostly recruited for their sport. May be I am being literal in reading that passage but my interpretation is it takes playing sports at State level to get into Ivies and I am certain there are many attending Ivies who have never played a sport for their high school.

172

IMHO it’s not the trip itself that’s at issue in application essays, it’s the shallow thinking that goes into the essay that’s a problem. The “I went thousands of miles to meet poor people and realized they’re just like us” essay is something students were once more able to get away with because such trips were rare and were evidence of a kid who had gone beyond his or her comfort level to do something both positive and challenging.

Now every organization on the planet seems to offer a variant on the school building in Guatemala trip, and these trips involve little to no discomfort to the student. I think some people were surprised when we declined to send our middle school daughter on the class trip to the DR to work on a water project because our family has been heavily involved in international philanthropic work, in particular building community infrastructure. The problem was that the kids were going to be staying in a special center built for such programs and after a modest amount of work would be touring. It was clear to me that they would never work alongside anyone from the community, nor experience what it’s like to live in this country as a regular citizen. Glorified vacations don’t make for good college essays and the money spent on them could usually be better spent to hire someone local to do the work.

My older daughter almost wrote one of her essays on a school building trip to Latin America but it wouldn’t have been about her time abroad but about the night she spent alone in the Newark airport upon her return. Honestly, being locked outside of security for the night, being accosted repeatedly by an overly friendly homeless man, and banding together with a woman with whom she shared no common language would have made for a much more interesting essay.

173

@Sue22 – that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

D’s counselor, who used to read app essays for Stanford, said over and over that essays have to show “who you are as a person.” So many kids make the mistake of thinking that they’re writing the kind of essay they would have written for English class, in which the focus was supposed to be on an impersonal topic, not on their own feelings. Unless you can write something worthy of publication in a major news outlet, the former kind of essay isn’t going to give you a boost in your applications.

174

I think dusty pig’s advice in #172 is useful, based on a super-limited sample. Do others agree?

175

@Texaspg,
I think you and I were putting different interpretations on the same passage. Where you (if I read your post correctly) were seeing the author as saying kids need state-level athletics to make it into the qualified 40%, I was reading it as saying that contrary to some people’s assumptions EC’s like being a state-level but unrecruited athlete or being the president of a club or two doesn’t get you beyond that 40%. In order to be admitted most students need something that makes them stand out such as an insightful and humorous essay, an extraordinarily strong recommendation, a unusual extracurricular activity, leadership on an adult level, evidence of real focus in a particular academic area, a history of overcoming great obstacles, being a recruited athlete or development case.

176

The quote above is from post 140 - and the former Ivy league admissions officer. I think the advice makes a lot of sense. Does anyone have an idea though as to the best way to share some of these things in an app? For example, an EC that got lots of national attention and participation and support from high profile people in the government and entertainment might be an AND. But how would a photo in the NYT or an endorsement from the Governor of a state be shared with the admissions officers?

177

I agree with dustypig. too often I see kids worrying about what they should write their essay about, when in actuality every essay should be about the same thing-the applicant. It’s only the wrapping that changes.

I told my kids not to worry about what the essay should be about, but to think about what they wanted the admissions committee to know about them and then think of a story that demonstrated those qualities. In someone’s book or blog (perhaps MIT Chris’?) an admission officer wrote about an essay he’d liked in which an applicant wrote about getting a group of friends to come with him on a long bike ride to get ice cream. Biking to Dairy Queen doesn’t seem like a very compelling topic but within this essay the applicant demonstrated qualities the school wanted to see- leadership, humor, humility and the ability to write well.

178

@CHD2013, some kids with serious EC interests have websites or blogs, with links to things like media writeups. Consider this website by theatre/performing artist and recent Harvard grad Mark Mauriello:

http://www.markmauriello.com/#!media/c1adq

It’s a great example of “tangible evidence” of a passion.

179

^I agree. But many schools, especially, the more selective ones, appear to be interested in only what fits on the standard common app - and I don’t see the common app asking for this type of info. So I totally get what tangible evidence consists of, and agree with you that that Mark M has it, but I’m still unclear about the best way to share info like favorable attention in the national press or from celebrity opinion leaders, etc.

180

This started about the elites. Because so many think hierarchically (what’s “better,” what will get me further?,) I don’t think some trust how much this really is about the kid and how he comes across. I don’t think some believe that, say, support from high profile people, doesn’t advance a kid unless he/she has the other personal factors- and in the right depth and breadth. The easy example is the kid who program apps and does make good money at it, maybe gets some acclaim. Though most of us would be impressed, in ordinary terms, it doesn’t suggest a whit about how that kid would succeed in the campus community, academically, socially and in terms of extending himself. He still has to “show” that.

In ways, you are always asking yourself, “what is this kid thinking?” which goes in hand with, “Is he thinking?” On CC, some kids need to clarify their thoughts about the app or their activities and a line or two of good advice from someone savvy does help them. But, the kids who can’t understand to show “who you are as a person” (and the rest of what goes with that) or what you “want the admissions committee to know about you,” (assuming you’ve done the work to figure what they want to see,) are starting behind.

When you’re talking about 25-40k apps for a few thousand slots, there are no points for, “Oh, she must have been confused” or maybe the GC mis-advised. You have to deal with what IS there, the choices the kid did make (in hs and in the app) and the judgment skills (or lack) behind that.

CHD, you probably know (and Urena mentioned) that reviews are very quick. There isn’t much time to run over a host of supporting documents and frankly, by the time one would get to them, an impression has already been made, in the reader’s mind. The kid can list the accomplishment in Activities, can give his few words of description. If there is something else to say, it can go in Addl Info. A narrative or photos are extraneous and not tips. And unless they are super relevant to the college’s review/needs, again, one could wonder what the kid was thinking.

Some kids do include a short note from a lab mentor or a copy of a teacher review from an intense summer course. These are not necessary, but can be relevant. It’s the relevance that matters. And then, again, the judgment behind that.

(Linking to your arts samples is different. Link to your writing if it is truly good. Just having a blog about whatever isn’t “it.” Just showing some confirmation you did indeed show up every week isn’t really of value And to be relevant, it can matter what that “serious EC” is.)