Elite Colleges Still Favoring Kids from Private Schools?

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<p>No, I’ve never had the pleasure of making Mr. Schafle’s acquaintance. The conversation I was referring to took place some years ago, and the AO I was speaking to covered another area. As you know, there’s a fairly high turnover in these jobs, and/or people end up getting reassigned to other regions, so there’s little point speculating on the identity of the individual.</p>

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<p>Absolutely. My point exactly. But in pursuing the richest lodes, they also end up having the most interaction with the usual suspects, i.e., students and GCs in high-end private and high-end suburban schools. I’m not criticizing that. They do it for exactly the same reason that many business recruiters concentrate their recruiting on a handful of colleges; it’s not because they think no one else will be qualified for the positions they’re seeking to fill, but they’re going to go to the places where they’ll get the most bang for the buck out of their recruiting efforts. It’s a perfectly logical strategy. But it also has consequences, which in the case of elite colleges means they never get on the radar of a lot of “diamonds in the rough” (as an earlier poster put it) because there’s little or no interaction. </p>

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<p>Yes, colleges fairs are somewhat helpful. I went to a few with my daughters when they were exploring colleges. A couple of things about them. First, the big NACAC-sponsored college fairs are held in a handful of big cities. They don’t do much for people in “Greater Minnesota” (as we call the rest of the state outside the Twin Cities metro). And second, the very top colleges have never attended the NACAC college fair here in Minneapolis. As for the joint-appearance events by groups of top colleges–I’ve been to a few of those, too. They are quite well attended–but mostly by the usual suspects, i.e., kids from the high-end public and high-end private schools who already know about Brown and Duke and may be angling to get into those schools. But if you go to an urban school or a working class suburban school that doesn’t regularly send kids to Brown or Duke, and your GC has never mentioned them, and you may never have even heard of those schools except in connection with Duke basketball, the chances of your attending such an event are in the range of extremely slim to none. If you go to a school in small-town or rural "Greater Minnesota, the chances that you’ll attend such an event are much closer to zero than to slim.</p>

<p>Look, the reality is that when top-end colleges recruit in Minnesota, they’re basically all recruiting the same kids. They’re Twin Cities metro kids at not more than half a dozen private schools, and roughly that many public schools. And because they can easily fill their quota of Minnesotans from that pool, they don’t spend much time outside it. I’m not criticizing them for that, I’m just saying it’s part of why they aren’t on the radar of so many kids at so many schools. And it’s a self-reinforcing cycle; because they aren’t on the radar, any recruitment efforts they do make beyond the usual suspects are likely to have little return. But this is not, as some on CC seem to think, a single national competition in which those with the best qualifications get into the best colleges. It’s not even close to that; there are information gaps and information asymmetries everywhere, and elite college admissions is still substantially an insider’s game. Who’s “inside” may be a larger group than in the past; it’s now no longer just elite private schools, it’s elite private schools and elite public schools, along with a few who wander in off the street and stumble across information channels like CC and more-or-less figure it out. But being an insider still gives you a tremendous edge.</p>

<p>My point is that an AO in the east coast is not reading applications and interacting with GC’s across the country. They have delegates in different areas, which makes the task of interacting with 30000 high schools and get the “context” of each appication easier. And, maybe like you said they are recruiting the same kinds of kids from MN but they shouldn’t be. The mission is to expand their reach to more and more places and people of diverse backgrounds with time. That been said, I believe at the same time they try to keep certain bottom lines untouched, things like their academic standards and their ideal of a community. In that sense, diversity could only go so far.</p>

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<p>The admissions numbers are not enough information. If one is going to argue against the obvious bias of 44% then one also needs to know the percentages of the rejected applicants from both private and public school. I don’t believe this information is available so again the only thing we know is that Yale (based on the 44%) appears to favorite private schools for reasons which can only be guessed. I’m guessing, money.</p>

<p>Let’s look at the numbers for Bowdoin:</p>

<p>The article I quoted mentioned 46% of applicants from private or parochial schools and 54% from public schools. The Bowdoin class profile at [Class</a> of 2014 Profile (Bowdoin Admissions)](<a href=“http://www.bowdoin.edu/admissions/apply/2014-profile.shtml]Class”>http://www.bowdoin.edu/admissions/apply/2014-profile.shtml) mentions that the percent of students in the class of 2014 from private and public schools is quite similar to the percentage of applicants in those groups – 43% of the class of 2014 went to private or private or parochial schools and 57% went to public schools. This data suggests that public school HS applicants to Bowdoin were slightly more likely to become a member of entering freshman class than private schools applicants, even though 43% of the freshman class at Bowdoin came from private or parochial schools (a nearly identical percent from private schools as Yale).</p>

<p>I’ve given many explicit examples showing that the stats to not imply favoritism towards private schools. Continuing to do so is getting silly. How are you concluding that Yale favors private schools?</p>

<p>When you go fishing, you go where you have the best chances of a good catch. So it goes with admissions.</p>

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These figures show that Bowdoin has an “obvious bias” for public school students. Why would we expect Yale to be different?</p>

<p>sosomenza, I think what Data10 is trying to convey to you is that there are many possible explanations for the percentage of private school students at Yale, and no one of them is the “obvious” explanation. You reveal your own biases by your assumptions.</p>

<p>There is always a possibility of “bias” of some sort, but even the methods being suggested for identifying it aren’t going to get the job done. Just knowing the “proportionality” imbalance doesn’t tell you much. You need to know the “qualifications” of the populations.</p>

<p>Given that Andover and others are not open enrollment, its reasonable to assume that their students overall are from a much more qualified population than the public schools…even those in affluent districts. The question would be whether the self-selection of the public school applicants overcomes the preselection “screen” of admission to Andover et. al., in terms of qualifications (grades and scores and overall “promise”). </p>

<p>And of course there is the matter of full-pay students, of which there are probably more at the private schools than there are at high SES public districts.</p>

<p>I thought the Hopkins comment and the Yale faculty connection was insightful, and likely accurate based on what I know.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, the admissions offices have a great bias towards admitting qualified lower SES kids, IMO. I was one of them years ago at a school in Yale’s ballpark. Its just not as easy to find them these days, I believe.</p>

<p>I had some of my kid in what is considered a top independent school. How much of a boost one gets for top college admissions, sending your kid to such a school yields has been a topic of conversation and debate both on this board and at the schools and communities themselves. The answer is that it depends greatly upon the kid and the specific schools. However, I can tell you that, in part, the reason for such high admissions rate to the most selective colleges from some of these schools is for these reasons: 1) Because the kids are preselected and are already a prime group, it makes sense that more of them are elite school material 2) The kids are well prepared at these schools for the academic rigor of the elite schools and the back stats show this clearly 3) A lot of those kids are going to be applying to these elite schools and it comes down to which ones they will pick and the colleges want to make sure they are on as many lists as possible 4) A larger than usual number of those kids are special situations, such as development, celebrity, relationship, legacy, special skills. And when I say relationship, it’s not the kind you hear the braggin’ about, that a second cousin thrice removed knows the board presidient or great aunt Lucy gave money to the school. There isn’t a peep about the kinds of relationships at play. Like being the favorite niece of the head of admissions. Or the godchild and child of the best friend of the presidnet of the schoool or head of a department. Very strong personal relationships where the benefactor truly takes the kid under his wing and makes it an important issue that the kid gets into the school. Not just a letter or a word put in. No, there ain’t no braggin’ about those things. I know of a few of them,and i can tell you, if the kid is qualified, he’s in when those contacts are present.</p>

<p>So just getting your kid into those elite private high schools is not the only thing in upping the odds. The competitions from his class is going to be steeper if the kid has none of the goodies that a number of his classmatees do.</p>

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While this is probably true, the selective schools may also have much more than their “share” of really high-achieving low SES students, because most of those schools also have financial aid programs these days.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, of course I am well aware of the difference in application numbers and rates from public and private schools, elite and non in both categories. IF you get the percentages of applications to a highly selective college that are from private and public schools, and then take the percentage of thos accepted one can see which group is getting more of the acceptances. Even then the whole picture isn’t there, because in order to be accurate, one has to also do a match of the stats. </p>

<p>Looking at a top public school vs a highly regarded private independent school, all things equal as best as I could tell, there is still the edge at the private is my opinon and finding. I saw a number of non connected (as far as I could see, and knew some of these families personally for years), kids in the 2nd quintile grade wise at the private were getting into Cornell, Brown and a number of the highly selective LACs without any special hook factors. Not happening except as a rare event at the public. </p>

<p>In fact, I know a private school in Philly that has a back door into a certain LAC for kids even not 2nd quintile. Such situations do exit between some private schools and colleges.</p>

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I’m sure this is true, but doesn’t the chart linked in the very first post suggest that this is much less true than it used to be?</p>

<p>Interesting comments that match what I’ve witnessed in selective schools’ recruiting efforts and the natural inclination to go to the bigger fishing holes.</p>

<p>A counter to this is the use of marketing such as mailers to kids who score a certian number on ACT/PSAT, etc. but may live outside the dense metropolitan areas. </p>

<p>But when these are discussed here on CC, immediately a chorus of people chime in to castigate the schools for wanting to “pump up their numbers, so they can reject more, so they can appear more selective, so their rankings go up”</p>

<p>Darned of you do, darned if you don’t to these folks, eh?</p>

<p>CPT- your post about second quintile ignores the massive grade inflation going on in so many public HS’s. Every May we read here about the schools with 12, 15, 20 “Valedictorians”. In my town, it’s the kids who have taken 12 AP classes (scoring 2’s and 3’s.). And the “4.5 GPA” (how is that possible on a scale of 0-4 you might ask).</p>

<p>The privates in my area have exactly zero or 1 Val per year. (some don’t name a Val). They limit the kids to 2-4 AP’s over the entire four year HS experience so they actually have to learn and process and think and write in those classes. The typical AP score is a 4 or 5, and if you’ve taken the class you are required to sit for the exam (not so at our public, where the clearly “weak links” in the class are told to sit out the test so as not to pull down the stats.) Etc.</p>

<p>So it’s apples to kiwis to compare a second quintile kid at an academically challenging private, to the second quintile kid at my local HS. At my local HS, that’s a kid who took Yearbook, Marching Band, and Personal Finance for credit in lieu of a full academic load.</p>

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<p>Exactly. It’s the ignorance of the I’m-so-sophisticated-I’ve-never-been-outside-my-upper-middle-class-East-Coast-bubble that amazes me on CC. It is just common knowledge that what bclintonk is describing – if you’re at a high school in Minnesota outside the Twin Cities, chances are you’ve never really heard of Brown or Duke outside something like Duke basketball, it’s just not on your radar screen – and yet the same people put their hands to their hearts and are shocked, SHOCKED, that the % of public school kids who apply to elite schools is lower than the % of private school kids who apply. Honestly, duh. How unsophisticated do you have to be to recognize that the awareness, power and desirability of elite schools tends to be concentrated in certain parts of the country and among certain socioeconomic groups? I happen to be solidly in the core of the kind of people who value elite schools (upper middle class, professional, suburb of a major city, had an elite education myself), but I’m not so ignorant as to think that everywhere in the country is just like me.</p>

<p>blossom, Many public schools do require kids to take all the AP tests if they have taken the class. My kids went to a non magnet very diverse public high school, lots of low income kids as well as middle and upper middle class kids. Older kid had 10 AP’s, mostly 4’s and 5’s. Younger kid had 7, also mostly 4’s and 5’s (AP Scholar with distinction). The valedictorian in younger kid’s class was a National AP Scholar in the state. Each school is different .</p>

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But we are not talking about Duke or Brown but rather HYP, the elite colleges that have been recruiting most aggressively to increase the diversity of its student body and been most generous in distributing FA. And no one is arguing over “the % of public school kids who apply to elite schools is lower than the % of private school kids who apply”, but rather whether applicants from private schools, which graduate 10% of HS students in the US and the majority of which are religiously affiliated schools located in all parts of the country, actually constitute 43%+ of Yale or Princeton applicants. My take like some others’ is that it’s not the number of applicants but the number of <em>desirable</em> applicants from private schools (for various reasons as discussed in a few posts) is the reason for the seemingly over-representation of private schools (and academically challenging independent schools in particular) applicants.</p>

<p>Oh, I agree fully that the grade deflation,especially at private schools that refuse to weight any grades, has a lot to do with this. Making a comparision is so difficult because of all of the factors that are weighed. It’s my opinion, however, that kids taking the same difficult course loads at some rigorous known public school vs known private school, the chances of the kid getting more of a pass at the private is better. Just my opinion based on some things I’ve seen in the past 16 years. And I have a kid who benefitted greatly from this. I don’t know anyone who would have gotten into a couple of school that he did with his gpa except from a top private schoool or a strong hook and he absolutely did not have the latter. No development, legacy, URM, atheletics, celebrity, special skiils, connections. Zip.</p>

<p>Colleges have access to a school’s profile and can take into account whether a school, public or private, weights any grades. The grades are looked at in the appropriate context.</p>

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<p>It will shock some of you that in many (possibly most) parts of the country H,Y,P, Duke, Brown, whatever are all pretty much the same. Vague things heard about, but “not for me or people like me,” “not where the successful people in my community necessarily went to school.”</p>

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<p>What % of public high school kids IN GENERAL across the country are even APPLYING to ANY four-year residential college situation in the first place? It’s like some people on here have completely forgotten about public high schools that serve inner-city neighborhoods or rural neighborhoods. Everyone’s taking their New Trier / Short Hills mindset and thinking that all public schools are like that – affluent, full of the children of upper middle class educated professionals who are, of course, parsing the finer points of H vs Y vs P vs Duke vs Brown.</p>