<p>Here’s where the left meets the right, hereshoping. I happen to believe that the state is training or controlling my children too, but I don’t agree about that this is socialist in nature, more corporatist and capitalist. </p>
<p>Where’s a good libertarian when we need one?</p>
<p>“Unfortunately for some, our country is not based on the theories of Hobbes or Rawls. I believe the founders of this country firmly believed in natural rights - among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”</p>
<p>Oh, I know they said they believed that. It was a useful fiction when fighting against the divine right of kings. But Rousseau went out the window pretty quick. It was good sloganeering for folks who were later to write a Constitution without a Bill of Rights or an enumeration of any natural rights whatsoever, who believed African-American slaves in the tens of thousands couldn’t possibly be running away as an exercise of freedom, and who, contrary to the constitutions that existed in each and every one of the colonies, left any mention of God, divinity, or the Creator out of the national Constitution, except to exercise restraints on religion. </p>
<p>Of course, since the advent of corporate socialism in the 1840s - where the rich unite in their class interests to seek control of government authority, beginning with the right of incorporation - what they said (in 1776, and repudiated in 1789) has been a convenient cover for the process of labor and resource extraction.</p>
<p>Most of Rawls is purely descriptive - it describes how we have chosen to define “self-interest” and hence how we act, as opposed to how we should.</p>
<p>The problem with most socialists and social theorists is that they believe the economy is a zero-sum game. In order for one to be a have there has to be a have not. In real life capitalism that is not the case. The pie continues to grow larger. Your success helps my success.</p>
<p>Real life capitalism, as described by barrons, has obviously never met America, land of the great divide between haves and have nots.</p>
<p>
The stated goal of the legal systems in most totalitarian societies is justice. Our founding fathers realized that justice is in the eye of the beholder and the better way to insure justice is to establish a system that provides (or attempts to provide) equal opportunity.</p>
<p>Oh BS. More people are living well in the US than ever. Instead of some 1200 sf 3b/1ba home the minimum now is double that. And most families have to have three cars if there are any teens.</p>
<p>allmusic: I’m kind of with you there - different means to the same ends.</p>
<p>Barrons has obviously never been looking at property in my neck of the woods. Nor at what’s parked in the driveways…three cars the norm in families with teenagers? Hardly.</p>
<p>HH, please don’t tar all Christians with your representations. Quite a few of us take great offense.</p>
<p>Barrons:</p>
<p>This is another case where it depends on location (another being what this thread is supposed to be about). We manage very well with just one car for 4 people, all of whom have their driver’s license. We don’t use the car much, actually, because we have a good transportation system and it’s a hassle trying to find a parking space. </p>
<p>I agree with DRJ that the better system is one that attempts to provide
equal opportunity. But for one reason or another, this equality of opportunity does not exist.</p>
<p>Success in the 21st century capitalism is a function of mental/educational assets–not cattle, oil and gold. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.reason.com/rb/rb121605.shtml[/url]”>http://www.reason.com/rb/rb121605.shtml</a></p>
<p>TheDad: Please explain. I had no idea I was doing so. You can pm me if you want. I do not want to cause offense in such a way again.</p>
<p>Oh, nevermind. I remember you now from the “Is Anti-Catholicism Still Around?” thread. I realized you are quite the expert in Catholicism. Obviousy, especially in Christian charity.</p>
<p>I had a chance to look at the Marite’s tables that were linked in a post from early today. I looked at teenage pregnancy rates (per 1,000 population), teenage birth rates, teenage abortion rates, and teenage abortion ratios (abortions divided by the sum of live births and abortions). A state with a high abortion ratio can have relative few abortions if the number of teenage pregnancies are low to begin with. I cross-referenced this by red states vs blue states vs “leaners” (close for either Bush or Kerry).</p>
<p>There were two subgroups within the blue states -</p>
<p>High pregnancy rates - high abortion ratios - NY NJ DC MD and CA - Coastal Metro states
Low pregnancy rates - high abortion ratios - New England</p>
<p>There were two subgroups within the red states:</p>
<p>Low pregnancy rates - Low abortion ratios - Upper Midwest and Rockies
High pregnancy rates - Low abortion ratios - The South</p>
<p>If America was Europe, these 4 regions might form their own countries. 
Regardless, I think any reasonable person would like to reduce the number of teen out-of-wedlock pregnancies. Is it possible that various approaches will be effective in some areas and not in others? This may just have to be a state-by state thing.</p>
<p>Anyway, in Coastal Metro states, the pregnancy rates are high and girls seem to be using abortion instead of contraception. Parents are obviously doing a bang-up job here. I think in these states, it would be very difficult to limit abortions and so contraception (e.g., Plan B) is the lesser of evils.</p>
<p>You have high birth rates in the South and apparent resistance to birth control and abortion, so the avialibility of Plan B wouldn’t do much good. Here I think you appeal to the same conservative and religious values that result in low abortion ratios and work backwards to sexual behavior (like abstinence programs?)</p>
<p>Sorry for the long post and terrible spelling.</p>
<p>Interesting Dadguy. What might also be interesting to correlate is parents’ educational levels. What I see here in the South is that many teens do not consider abortion and their parents do not see teen pregnancy as out of the norm as many of the parents became parents as teenagers. I don’t know about the rest of the South, but I know in our area %of college graduates is fairly low–many jobs are factory, farming, labor. Religion may also play a large role as it is known as the Bible Belt, but what I have personally observed is more a continuation of “culture” (for lack of a better word).</p>
<p>
I think so, and it’s another reason to let the citizens of each state vote regarding the rules for abortions, contraceptives, notifications, etc. Some states may be restrictive while others may be permissive, but I suspect the voters in most states will choose the middle ground.</p>
<p>Thank you Marite for linking the information and Dadguy for your analysis.</p>
<p>I was never much of a state’s rights guy, but we might to go that route here in order to have a reasonable peace.</p>
<p>okay…<br>
highest teen pregnancy rates: (highest elementary school preganacy rates!!!): TEXAS… guess what information is banned from Texas PUBLIC SCHOOL health text books…
birth control… they can’t mention it at all…
I dont know how it is in other states, but… does no one else see the problem here
(okay, sorry, we were talking about states and teen pregnancy rates)</p>
<p>anyway… I think that more so than the morning after pill, I think that schools should DEFINATELY have something going with planned parenthood to set up STD testing (the same way they have lice-checks and testing for scoliosis) and make condoms more readily available… in which case I think that a lot of the present concerns about sexually active teens would not be such a problem…</p>
<p>mkm makes a very valid point. Teen pregnancy rates do not take into account whether the mother is married or not. There is a study suggesting that people marry eariler in certain areas than in others. Abortio or the alternative, resort to Plan B, is more likely to occur if the woman is not married.</p>
<p>haha… few teen mothers marry… but there surely are a lot of pregnant teens at school… From my experience, these girls don’t get abortions because their parents won’t let them… so really, I think the school should make things available and confidential… very very few teen mothers finish high school either…</p>
<p>More food for thought:</p>
<p>
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/13/national/13census.html?ex=1286856000&en=deedbb83130bfc25&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/13/national/13census.html?ex=1286856000&en=deedbb83130bfc25&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss</a></p>