Engineering Grad with Masters

MichEngGrad · January 23, 2006, 11:13pm

Shraf, I never said I wouldn’t do well. I’m more than confident in my ability to achieve high grades in those courses. I have taken 12 credit hours of graduate classes while working 40-50 hours a week and achieved all As. I have not received a grade lower than an A- since the Fall semester of 2002. And this was in very difficult Engineering courses. I am aware the prereq courses that I must take are difficult as well but I am a very serious student and I feel confident that I will achieve good grades in these as well.

So I am assuming you feel that I have a decent chance of getting into med school based on what I have accomplished as of now, but obviously need to do well on the MCATs as well.

Shraf · January 23, 2006, 11:28pm

Yes, i am confident that u will do well in those classes and that you have a shot. As for the MCATs having the info fresh in your memory from a class is crucial and the Kaplan or PR practices are great. On my first practice in october i got a 19 because i was trying to remember my bio from 2-3 years ago in HS and did horribly. (Btw, i took higher level IB bio, which is pretty much like college level bio course and I did very well in it). When i took a full length practice yesterday I felt alot more confident about the bio section because I had just taken the first semester of the class this past semester and knew everything front and back (as demonstrated by the A). So yes, it depends on ur MCAT but i dont think you should rush into it…if you are determined to go to med school and you have confidence in your abilities then I suggest you go all the way…you might want to take a look at a few practice MCAT sections first…buy a kaplan book or something…but if you have the motivation to do it and you are clearly not unintelligent, then you should be fine and you should go all the way with it from the beginning and be confident in your choice, and not pussyfoot your way into it.

sakky · January 24, 2006, 8:50pm

I agree. But like I said, if you can’t self-motivate yourself, you’re probably not going to have a great medical career anyway. Medicine is a career field that definitely places a premium on the ability to be a self-starter and to be able to manage your time properly and have self-discipline.

Besides, look at it this way. Most premeds will be at least to some degree need to self-study before they take the MCAT to brush up on their stuff. Let’s be perfectly honest here. If you are really so unmotivated that you can’t find the wherewithal to brush up for the MCAT by yourself, you’re probably not going to get a score that will make you competitive for med-school anyway. So if you have to self-study to brush up for the MCAT anyway, it’s not much of a stretch to think that you can also self-study your way through the premed curricula. After all, self-study is self-study.

And look at my response more carefully. In a nutshell, my response is that none of what you said really matters at the end of the day. I agree that it’s hard to know whether you really understand orgo just because you can answer some MCAT questions. But that’s not relevant. For the purposes of the MCAT, it doesn’t really matter whether you really understand orgo. The only thing that matters is whether you can answer the MCAT questions. No more, no less. You can have a PhD in organic chemistry from MIT, but if you, for whatever reason, can’t answer the OChem questions on the MCAT, then you have a problem.

And take the second part of your response. You say that MCAT orgo represents only a small fraction of what an OChem class should be. Again, goes right back to my point. When you take the MCAT, you want to know the MCAT material well, not necessarily know OChem really well. Who cares if you know a bunch of advanced OChem reactions and mechanisms that will never appear on the MCAT? That doesn’t help you. What matters is if you know the MCAT stuff.

As far as the practice involved in OChem class helping you think about the MCAT, I would say that this is a most inefficient way to go about studying. After all, what is more efficient for the purposes of doing well on the MCAT, looking at a bunch of deep problems that won’t appear on the MCAT (but might help you think about the MCAT), or going through study questions that closely approximate actual MCAT questions. I think it is not even a close call.

Look, the truth is, tests are something of a game. To do well on tests, you want to study for the test. Spending your time learning things that will not appear on the test might be intellectually satisfactory, but is not going to help you score well on the test. And, like I said, med-school admissions is a game. It doesn’t really matter how much you KNOW, if only matters how well you SCORE - both in terms of MCAT and in terms of GPA.

Again, I would repeat. You can have extremely deep knowledge of the premed materials. You can even hold a PhD in OChem. But if you can’t get a good MCAT score, and you can’t present good grades, then you won’t get admitted. It’s really as simple as that. That’s the game of med-school admissions.

Again, nobody is saying that you 100% won’t get good grades. But also, nobody is guaranteeing that you WILL get good grades either. That’s the point. You might help your candidacy. On the other hand, you might WORSEN your candidacy. You just don’t know.

Think of it this way. Nobody actually takes a premed class intending to do poorly. But the fact is, plenty of people end up doing poorly. That might not be you. But, then again, it might be. You just don’t know.

Again, the counterexample is what if you got C’s in OChem and Bio. I know quite a few people that did that. I know at Berkeley, a LOT of people in premed classes end up with C’s or even worse. You must admit, those people are probably less likely to get admitted than they were before. They would have been better off not taking the class at all.

sakky · January 24, 2006, 8:55pm

In your specific case, I would say that your record is good enough that it’s not going to get that much better. For example, even if you do get straight A’s in OChem and Biology, your GPA won’t be that much better than it is now. And then of course there is the significant chance that you won’t get straight A’s. In fact, there is always the chance that you will do poorly. After all, a lot of sharp and hard-working people do poorly.

Hence, the point is, by taking premed classes before you apply, you seem to have more to lose than to gain. Obviously if you do well, you will have strengthened your candidacy. But if you don’t do well, you will actually HURT your candidacy. Right now, presuming your MCAT is good, you are probably a competitive candidacy. You really have to ask yourself whether you should risk that by taking premed classes when you don’t have to (i.e. before you apply).

sakky · January 24, 2006, 9:05pm

You can try out those practice MCAT’s to give you a gauge, but it’s obviously not totally reliable. The only way to know what score you will get is obviously to take the MCAT.

I stress studying for the MCAT now because it seems that that is the fastest way for you to find out whether you are a viable candidate. After all, you say that you are extremely busy and can’t prep for the MCAT. Sure. But that also means that you are also probably too busy to start taking any premed classes. So the choice between prepping for the MCAT and taking premed classes is therefore a false choice. The true choice is between prepping for the MCAT now, or doing nothing now and waiting for a better time.

I stress the MCAT not because I necessarly think it is more important than grades. I stress it for 1 major reason - you don’t need to take any more premed classes before you apply to med-school, but you do need to have taken the MCAT. Like I said, if you do extremely well on your MCAT, you can basically “cash in your chips” and apply immediately while deferring OChem and Bio until after you apply. With a very high MCAT score and your current transcript, I would say that you probably have a winning hand, so there’s no point in risking anything that might blow it. On the other hand, if you bomb your MCAT, then even getting straight A+'s in OChem and Bio and doing all kinds of volunteer clinic work probably won’t save your candidacy, so you might as well close shop and stop spending any more time.

Right now, you are competitive for a middle-tier medical school. It is your MCAT score that is the major missing determinant of your chances.

Shraf · January 24, 2006, 9:15pm

I dont understand how a med school admissions board can logically compare a candidate who took the easy way out of not bothering to take these classes with someone who busted their ass in them and did well. I’m positive that if you have two individuals with similar MCAT scores and GPA and if one did not take bio and orgo and the other did and did well in them, they would certainly choose the person who took the classes. Ontop of this, the AMCAS application calculates how many “science” hours you’ve done and if they see that a person has barely done 10 it wont look very good I’m sure. I am always wondering where you get such strange and illogical information from. And one more thing, if someone is getting a C in bio, i dont think they belong in med school and we were told in orgo that the amount of work in the class is a good indicator of how it will be in med school so if you are getting a C in that too then I guess you wont do well in med school and u dont belong there. Period.

norcalguy · January 24, 2006, 9:21pm

I have to agree. Med schools value your science GPA a lot. If you refuse to take low level chem, bio, physics, orgo classes, what exactly will your science GPA be comprised of?

sakky · January 25, 2006, 12:27am

First off, in MichEngGrad’s case, he did take General Chem and Physics. So the point you’ve raised is irrelevant.

He has an engineering undergrad degree, and is getting an engineering master’s. So what is that in terms of science hours - maybe close to 100 hours? I think his ability to proven science ability is unquestioned. That is, unless you guys are prepared to say that getting a 3.6 in engineering from Michigan (and a 3.95 just within the EE major) is a cakewalk. Are you prepared to say that?

What you’re saying only reinforces my point even further. If you want to talk about people who are busting their ass - to repeat, this guy has a 3.6 in engineering from Michigan, a 3.95 specifically within EE, and is getting a master’s degree in engineering while holding down a job. Are you trying to say this guy hasn’t busted his ass? Be honest.

I would argue that this guy has probably worked FAR HARDER than most premeds have. That’s the nature of engineering.

Once again, look at the situation we have here. The true comparison is to take two guys. One is a guy who has done all of the premed coursework. The other is this guy, who is missing OChem and Bio, but (to repeat) has done quite well in Michigan engineering, and will have a master’s degree in engineering. They both get the same (strong) MCAT score. Go ahead. You tell me who you think worked harder.

Careful, pal. You just got personal. I have no problem in kicking you off CC for violating the terms. Keep it up, and I guarantee that you’ll be gone.

That’s up to the med-school adcom to decide. Not you. And not your OChem prof.

Look, the guy did well in a highly respected engineering program. If he now does well on his MCAT, in my eyes, that ought to be enough. In a perfect world, it probably would be. He certainly worked a whole heck of a lot harder than some of these other premeds who complete creampuff majors and rack up high GPA’s that way, and also have plenty of free time to do EC’s and study for their premed coursework. You know the kind of people I’m talking about.

I’ve seen some pre-meds cherry-pick the easiest possible classes in the easiest possible majors just to get super-high grades without having to study hard, and took 1 premed class per term. Since they are really only taking one “real” class per term, they obviously could devote plenty of time studying for that premed class, and they did well. They also had plenty of spare time to prep for their MCAT. I’ve seen these people successfully get into top med-schools. MichEnggrad, because of his strong engineering performance, clearly worked a heck of a lot harder than those guys did. I would say that even while missing some premed courses, if he does well on his MCAT, he’s proven himsefl to be better than those guys are.

I’m actually quite surprised that you are constantly insisting that this guy to take these premed classes, as if, #1 - this is the only way he can learn the material, and #2 - that he somehow hasn’t “proven himself” if he doesn’t and he’s taking some sort of unfair backdoor. To answer the first point, if he can learn the material well enough to score highly on the MCAT without taking the classes, then what do you guys care? And to #2 - I’m surprised that you guys don’t seem to appreciate how painstakingly difficult engineering is. Let me assure you, if he got a 3.6 in engineering from Michigan, he has worked a lot harder than most premeds have. His road was not a backdoor by any means. Heck, if anything, I would say that it is the regular premeds who have the “real” backdoor because they didn’t have to put up with the grading and workload of engineering.

Shraf · January 25, 2006, 3:49am

Actually believe it or not I do know how “painstakingly difficult engineering is” since I am a Biomedical Engineering major…and i dont need any assurances from you how hard it is to get a 3.6 GPA in Engineering I know exactly how hard it is cause thats exactly what my GPA is. I am certain that MichEngGrad is an awesome engineer but that doesnt mean he’d make a good doctor. How can someone be serious about going to med school without having had an introductory course in biology…there is no way that you can be certain that you will enjoy it if you dont even know the introductory material. And studying for the MCAT doesnt introduce you to the material. I think that you are better off taking the classes first because if you then decide you dont want to be a doctor or you arent fit for it then you have just learned something new and there is absolutely no loss in that whatsoever.

ok, lets all ignore that he said chem, physics, bio and orgo and just make believe he just said chem and physics…i dont think norcalguy intended that you pick and chose from that list and i agree with him.

actually all the engineering courses count as 0 hours, sorry, engineering is its own category and does not fall under BCPM. I had previously made a post about this and someone responded with a very informative list of what is and isnt counted as BCPM.

personal would be insulting you, I just made a statement about ur reasoning being illogical…calm down

norcalguy · January 25, 2006, 2:34pm

My question wasn’t specially pertaining to this case but in general. You are advocating putting off tough premed classes (esp. orgo) until after application time. Med schools specifically use these tough science classes (again, esp. orgo) to access how well you will do once you get into med school. You also advocate for people to major in something that’s non-science. So if someone were to follow both of your suggestions, they would have almost 0 science credits by the time they apply to med school. That may be the way to get the highest GPA possible but that’s not the way to get into med school.

Look, we get the point that GPA is important in med school admissions. Applicants should certainly be careful about what classes they take to make sure they don’t get needless B’s. However, sakky, you sometimes stretch your point too far (suggesting that people self-study for orgo, suggesting that people don’t take all of their prereqs before applying, suggesting that they take prereqs in community colleges). Yes, there is no rule that says you can’t do any of those things but med school admissions is inherently ultra competitive with many qualified candidates who did not take shortcuts along the way. There is a difference between what you can do and what med schools would recommend you do.

sakky · January 25, 2006, 4:42pm

Allright, so you know how tough engineering is. So I don’t think that MichEngGRad’s work ethic and brainpower is in question here.

Oh, and that’s because intro biology is really that related to being a doctor, right? Go ask any practicing doctor right now just how much of his intro biology class he still remembers. I’m going to go with about ‘zero’, and I think I’m going to be pretty close.

I think that the fact that the guy is willing to self-study his way through to doing decently on his MCAT (presuming he does well) is indication enough that the guy has some interest in medicine. After all, studying for the MCAT is not exactly my idea of a good time. Given the choice between that and just kicking it watching sports, I know what I’d prefer to do in my spare time. Why would anybody want to spend their time studying for the MCAT if they didn’t like medicine?

What are you talking about? There 's a HUGE loss in MichEngGrad’s case. He has to spend money to take the classes. He may have to quit his job. How is that not a loss?

In the case of self-study, he just borrows some books from his local public library. He self-studies them in his spare time. He doesn’t have to quit his job. He can skim over the books in his spare time and he can decide then whether he wants to continue. That’s a FAR cheaper way than quitting your job to take a class and then deciding that you want out.

So what? My point is to let MichEngGrad make that determination. If he can do what he needs to do through self-study, then what’s the problem?

My point is to let him try the sef-study option. Self-study is free. Self-study will let him keep his job. Let him at least self-study and try some of the MCAT exams to see whether he can learn enough to at least do decently on the MCAT. If he finds out through self-study that he doesn’t like being a doctor, then he can stop. If he finds out that self-study isn’t working for him to get ready for the MCAT, then he can either stop or take the actual classes. But if it works, then what’s the problem?

Again, think of it this way. Let’s say that he takes all these classes, and spends all his time doing that. Then he bombs the MCAT such that he can’t get into med-school. So that would mean that he basically spent money on all these classes for nothing.

No, sorry, norcalguy said “science” not BCPM.

And besides, think about what you’re saying. What you’re saying is basically a technicality. Why is Physics and Mathematics counted in BCPM, but not engineering? Only because AMCAS says so. But it’s not like there is any real “reason” why. If you’re an engineering student, you know full well that engineering classes are just basically applied physics and applied mathematics, so is there any real reason for why shouldn’t they count as part of “PM”? No. It’s just an arbitrary bureaucratic rule. They count intro physics, but not engineering (which is advanced applied physics) just because “they said so”.

And it is insulting to you.

How about this. I find your reasoning to be illogical. What do you think about that?

No no no. I am advocating that taking premed classes in which you are not confident you will do well in, and delaying them until later is a viable option. It should not be dismissed.

My REAL point is that med-school admissions is a game. The truth is, the material in premed classes really doesn’t have that much to do with being an actual doctor. Ask any practicing doctor just how much OChem, Bio, Physics, or Calculus he still remembers. It’s going to be pretty close to zero. The truth is, you just don’t need to know those things to do the job of being a doctor. You just need to know those things to get into medical school. It’s just a game.

{You might say that maybe OChem and Bio have a lot of memorization involved, and doctors need to be able to memorize a lot of facts. Yeah, but lots of classes require lots of memorization. So what’s so “special” about bio and OChem specifically, especially because doctors don’t actually use bio and OChem to do their daily job? Not much. It is a quite arbitrary choice that Bio and OChem were picked. They could have easily picked other things.}

However, even none of that is not my real point. My REAL point is that the saddest part of the whole med-school admissions process is that plenty of people go through the whole process, and then don’t get in anywhere. That’s sad. If you’re not going to get in, you ought to be told that as quickly in the process as possible so that you don’t waste your time. Come on - only half of all premeds who apply to med-school will actually get in somewhere, and plenty of other premeds drop out of the process because they don’t even apply? That’s simply not fair to the premed students.

This is why I am proposing what I think is a more efficient way - namely, to accelerate the MCAT so that you have your score and you have an indication of just how good your chances are of getting admitted. If you make a bonafide attempt at self-study and get a really bad MCAT score, then you know the game is over so you can abort and stop wasting time.

The other part, that you seem to be so incensed about, is that I am also saying that if you take that (accelerated) MCAT, and you do extremely well, then you should apply right away. But why does that incense you? Sure, I agree with you that if the guy has major deficiencies in his existing academic record, then he will probably not get in. But so what? So he applies again the following year. So what’s the harm in applying early? The worst they can say is ‘no’. If you have a chance of getting in early, why not run it up the flagpole and see?

But that’s exactly the issue. The med-schools love the situation as it exists today. They don’t care that, in the current situation, all these people are wasting their time and money trying to get into med-school and not get in. The existing system is unnecessarily callous.

Hence, I don’t care what the med-schools adcoms would recommend. They like the current bloody and harsh system. So the adcoms don’t deserve any consideration in my eyes. I care about finding a way to help prospective premeds to either get into med-school, or if they’re not going to get in, for them to know that fact quickly so that they can stop wasting any more of their time. One of the saddest and pathetic sights I have seen is all these premeds who spent massive amounts of time and money, and then not get in anywhere.

Shraf · January 25, 2006, 6:37pm

Sakky should get an award for using the phrase “self-study” the most in any post ever…going as far as using it about a dozen times in the same paragraph. This is beginning to sound alot more like a talking point and alot less like sound advice.

I agree with you about the Physics and Calc…orgo, maybe not exactly how it was taught, but you need to be able to recognize features of structures of drugs…that is organic chemistry, and bio…if a doctor doesnt know his basic genetics, evolution, immunology, physiology, etc etc etc then his license should be revoked…its the groundwork on which you are building on…you may not use it directly but it is basically the underlying factor in everything you do…I cant believe you are even suggesting that biology has absolutely nothing to do with medicine…that is completely absurd.

There are night classes so he doesnt need to quit his job…as for the money he spends…I dont find spending money on gaining knowledge to be a waste…clearly you see this as a game and the intellectual aspect of this really does not interest you at all…but believe it or not most people actually like this stuff and like to learn GASP

some people win and some lose…welcome to life

I find that perfectly fair…ever heard of survival of the fittest…same concept here…if you arent fit to go through these med school requirements then you have been “weeded out” (as much as i hate that word) and there are others who can go through it and do well who are clearly more qualified. Thats how med school admissions are self selecting…if it wasnt that way and if you, as you say, dont have to take the pre-reqs at all before taking the MCAT and applying, then i think three times as many students would try their hand at the MCAT for 180 bucks and then apply to med school and see if they’d get in anywhere without making any effort…it’d be a free-for-all.

Alright, so say someone takes your advice and goes through the process and gets a load of 'no’s back…then he actually takes the premed courses, strenthens his record and applies again…then he goes to his interview at a med school and they ask him why he applied the first time…what will his answer be? will he say “i just didnt feel like dealing with your ******** game” or “i just wanted to see what’d happen” …seroiusly people, if there was a shortcut then people would be taking it, but there isnt one!! Sakky has yet to give an example (which may as well be fake) of someone who did this and actually succeeded. Oh, and self studying through a CLASS does not count becuase you have a grade for it and it shows that you know the stuff. If you want to define the med school app process as a game then that means that we as the players must abide by the rules. Med schools dont see this as a waste of time and money, they see it as the best way to get the most qualified and dedicated candidates and i’m sure that if you act like their way is a waste and try to slip in under the radar, your application will end up in the trash bin, not even the rejected pile. Though your argument makes for a great diatribe about the application process it does not have any foundation at all…saying you can beat the game by not following the rules is not going to work and I am assuming that you have not even followed your own advice.

sakky · January 26, 2006, 3:26pm

So a talking point cannot be sound advice? My advice of self-study is no more of a ‘talking point’ than your constant pushing that people do things the traditional way. How is it any different?

How absurd is it? I see that you have implicitly agreed with me that biology by itself has nothing to do with medicine.

I agree that the subjects that biology is built upon, like physiology, anatomy, biochemistry, and so forth, have more to do with medicine. But then that just begs the question - why not use grades in THOSE classes to determine who gets into med-school? Instead of using BCPM grades, why not have premeds take classes in advanced biochem and anatomy and physiology and look at those grades? And why not have the MCAT test expertise in those subjects?

Don’t you see my point? The choice of bio and OChem was a completely arbitrary choice. Let’s think about why they chose bio and OChem. You might say that bio and OChem are relevant to medicine. However, other courses like anatomy and biochemistry are far more relevant to medicine. If they chose bio and OChem because they are difficult and involve a lot of hard work, certain courses like advanced math or advanced physics are far more difficult. If they wanted to choose bio and OChem because they involve lots of memorization, I would argue that certain other coursees involve far more memorization. For example, if you’re going to take a class to learn an Asian language like Chinese or Japanese, you better get ready for some SERIOUS memorization.

The point is, the BCPM classes are not “special” in any inherent sense. There’s nothing about BCPM classes that make them the best courses, our of all the available courses out there, to determine who is going to be a good doctor. BCPM are only special because the med-school adcoms arbitrarily said they were special. They could have easily chosen other courses, and they probably should have.

However, I stand my ground to say that if MichEngGrad can do well on the MCAT, then that should prove that his bio and OChem knowledge are satisfactory.

And self-studying for the MCAT doesn’t teach you anything? I know I learned quite a few new vocabulary words when I studied for my standardized tests. Heck, some of those words, I still use today in my daily speech.

As far as spending money to obtain learning to enjoy himself - you’ve just changed the goalposts. The OP was asking about what he should do to get into med-school (or whether he should bail out), not about what he should do to enjoy himself. This whole conversation is about what his med-school admissions strategy should be.

And heck, if studying for fun is what the game is about, then that actually only emphasizes my self-study idea even more. If you like the subject and you like to learn, then why wouldn’t you go to the library and borrow some textbooks and read them in your spare time? Why does it have to be in a classroom setting? For example, I like football and I like reading about footbal. That doesn’t mean I have to take a class on football.

See, now I’m starting to suspect that it’s actually personal for you. Possibly because you had to go through the traditional premed process, then so should everybody else. It’s like a fraternity hazing process.

I choose not to abide by that. If a better process exists, then you should try it, regardless of what the old-timers say.

After all, again, think about what MichEngGrad has gone through. He has completed a highly rigorous enginering program with high marks. So, even though he hasn’t completed the whole premed process, he has already worked harder than most of the other premeds out there, especially the ones who did creampuff majors. So what hazing has he really avoided? The hazing of engineering is far worse than the hazing that those premeds had to endure.

As far as having lots of people taking the MCAT, what is wrong with that? You said it youself, that MCAT costs $180. That’s far cheaper than most premed courses. You see your MCAT score, then you can decide whether you want to spend more money in continuing. If you bomb, then you only spent $180, and some self-study time, and now you know that being a doctor is unviable. That’s a good price for that information. Lots of people spend tens of thousands of dollars on post-bac programs, and then don’t get in. That is a huge price to pay to find out that you wont’ get in. I’d rather spend just the $180 to find out.

So what’s wrong with that. What’s wrong with taking the MCAT early (through self-study) so that you get some early information about whether you want to proceed. It seems to me that you don’t WANT anybody to have this early information. You WANT people to not know. I am proposing a way for people to get useful information about their chances. Why are you so interested in denying this information to them?

How is this any different from all those people who go through the traditional process, apply, get denied, wait one year to apply again, and then get admitted? A lot of people do that. Heck, I’ve known people who needed 3 or 4 years of applications before finally getting admitted.

Oh jeez, you just hurt your cause so BADLY by that sentence right there. Do you see your error?

The rule is that people have to have taken all their premed classes before they matriculate. The rule is NOT that they have to do so before they apply. So my proposals are in fact completely in-bounds and within the rules. The med-schools rules completely allow for my proposals.

Now I agree that certain med-schools may indeed have rules that state that all applicants must have completed their BCPM classes before they apply. But not all of them. In fact, not even most of them. That’s my point. And there is certainly no rule about having to take the BCPM classes before you take the MCAT. Hence, there is nothing untoward in the least about using the MCAT as an “early reconnaisance mission”.

Hey, I can’t help it if you misunderstood the rules so that you didn’t know that what I am proposing is possible.

sakky · January 26, 2006, 3:28pm

Not following the rules? See above. I am in fact completely within the bounds of the rules. Again, the rules say that you only have to do those premed courses before you matriculate, not before you apply. My proposals are completely within the rules as the med-schools have stated them.

But I’m thinking that it’s not the med school adcoms rules that matter to you. I’m starting to strongly suspect that it’s really YOUR rules, or specifically, your interpretation of the rules that matter. I suspect that because you are now going through tough premed courses, you now want everybody else to have to do it the same way, such that you don’t even want to know that there is another way to do things.

To that, I would say this. To those who are interested in becoming doctors and who are reading this post, ignore everything that both Shraf and I have said. Get some med-school application forms and read the ACTUAL RULES. Forget about what anybody tells you about what the rules are. Get the actual rules and read them. And if you still have questions, then email the adcom officers themselves and ask them whether you have to have taken premed courses before you apply, or before you matriculate. There’s a big difference between the two.

Shraf · January 26, 2006, 6:19pm

physiology and biochem build on bio, gchem and orgo…one second you are saying that the prereqs for premed are too much and dont matter and the next second you want people to have to take more courses because of course noone can take those advanced courses without filling the prereqs for those…which are bio, chem and orgo…so no it was not “arbitrary” that they chose those, they chose them so they can give the chance to people to major in what they want rather than have to major in something like bio otherwise if you had to take all the PREREQS OF THE PREREQS then you have no time to do anything else. So chosing them wasnt arbitrary it was because they are the essentials, the groundwork to the more advanced courses.

Once again, since I am majoring in Biomedical engineering the only extra course i actually had to take for premed was physics lab. I doubt that I am bitter for having to take ONE extra course to fulfill all the premed requirements. So, no you are absolutely wrong it is not personal.

Once again you cant be farther from the truth. The premed courses were actually my easiest…sorry.

I actually agree with that, it is on a case-by-case basis…problem is that people usually go into being premed before they even think about the specifics or the long-run.

Finally, there is a reason why people dont start in freshman year of HS taking the SAT, which requires alot less actual knowledge to do well in. You dont want to go into anything underprepared, its best to go into it as prepared as u can be from the first time and get it over with. However, trying your hand at it preemptively might work for some, but anyone can be more prepared than that.

Sakky, I am speaking from experience, that is the only reason this is “personal”…its funny how you whine about how i “attacked you personally” by questioning your logic, yet you are trying to paint me to be some bitter lunatic…its simply not true…my major required me to take every single premed course…i may as well have been premed by defult…but after going through the traditional way by no choice of my own since it was all required anyhow…I noticed that it is quite a good way to do things…and it makes u constantly consider and reconsider whether you want to be a doctor.

Oh and of course at least I speak from experience while you are pushing a scheme that you didnt even try yourself…and your past two posts seem to be lacking an answer to my request for examples of individuals who actually took this route.

sakky · January 26, 2006, 8:43pm

No, it’s still completely arbitrary. For example, if a guy can waive Bio through AP credit or is simply confident in himself that he doesn’t need the intro Bio class and just wants to get into BioChem straight away, why does he still have to take intro Bio just to fulfill the BCPM requirements?

Or I’ll put it to you another way. Let’s say some guy gets a bunch of C’s in Bio and OChem. But then he proceeds to take a bunch of advanced biochem and physiology classes and gets a string of A+'s. Why should the med-schools still care that he did so poorly in bio and OChem? He clearly managed to learn the material well enough to do extremely well in advanced coursework.

What I think adcoms should do is provide ‘guidelines’. For example, instead of insisting on BCPM, they should have applicants list the top reasons that they think show that they are knowledgeable about the material. For example, if a guy gets a C- in basic physics but an A+ in advanced engineering, then he should be able to state that his proof that he knows physics is that he has a top grade in engineering. If he doesn’t take any of life science courses but gets a perfect 15 in that section of the MCAT, then he should be able to state that reason as proof that he understands the life sciences. If you get a perfect 15 in that section of the MCAT, it’s hard to argue that you don’t know the material.

The point is, there are MANY ways to show that you know the material. There’s nothing “magical” about those specific premed classes, such that if you didn’t take them, you automatically don’t know the material.

I think what the deal is is that you’re scared that somebody (not MichEngGrad) is going to read this and find out that they can ‘hide’ a hard class like OChem until after they’ve already applied.

To that, I would say to take that up with the adcoms. The adcoms made the rules. The adcoms even send out the application that provides a section that allows you to list which premed courses you have not yet fulfilled but will do so before matriculation. Why is this section in the application if my tactics are not allowed?

I think I am pretty close to the truth. If not, then why are you objecting so much? If it works for MichEngGrad, then what’s the problem? Why are you so insistent that MichEngGrad not use self-study, or not try to prep for the MCAT to see where he stands? It seems to me that you just want to deny him information that he could use.

That is a non-sequitur. SAT’s are not comparable to MCAT’s. The fact is, we live in a country where any high school grad can go to college, even if it’s only a community college. So even if you get the lowest SAT score in the world, you can still go to college of some kind. It will probably be only a community college, but it’s still a form of college. However, med-school is a completely different game. There are not enough spots for everybody. So it behooves you to know whether you have a good chance of getting a spot before you spend too much time on it. If MichEngGrad gets a terrible MCAT score, he probably can’t get in, so he shouldn’t waste any more time. That is useful information that he can use to make his decision about whether he should invest any more of his time and money. Why do you want to deny him this information?

I don’t personally know anybody who has taken this route. In fact that’s the whole point - it’s a NEW idea of mine. That’s the whole point of new ideas - these are ideas that have yet to be done. If nobody ever tried out new ideas, then nothing would ever get better. Perhaps MichEnggrad will be the first.

However, from a purely logical standpoint, I fail to see any flaws in my proposals. I definitely see the flaws in the current situation in that it forces a lot of people to waste a lot of time and money to end up with nothing.

But go ahead, if you feel that an idea is automatically bad just because it’s new, just say so. If you follow that logic, then nobody would have ever invented the car because the horse was “good enough”. Nobody would have ever invented the computer because the typewriter was “good enough”.

texdad · January 30, 2006, 3:50pm

Sakky seems to be getting a bit carried away by his arguments. True med school admission is a game to a certain extent, so don’t make it harder than it needs be. No need to take all hard courses at once or take them all in a certain order, or go to a ball busting school needlessly etc. He is right there.

However, as an engineering grad myself, engineering guy should be able fairly easily to get A’s in organic and bio at an average state school, (not U of Michigan) which is where he should go. I wonder if perhaps Sakky is a science phobe guy who overestimates the difficulty of these courses for the scientifically inclined.

No need for engr guy to bend himself out of shape when the game (at least to the point of getting an A in orgo and bio) should be so easy for him-- even if he plays it straightforwardly by the rules. Sakky emphasizes the risks of playing by the rules (minimal for the engr guy) and underemphasizes the risks of ignoring the rules for engr guy.

Note I might see it differently if engr guy was English major guy who is scared by science courses.

sakky · January 30, 2006, 5:19pm

It’s not a matter of me underestimating the benefits. It’s a matter of me appreciating the risks. I have found that grading in science courses is not only hard, but is also often times fickle. Have one bad day on the day of the exam, and you’re toast. All your hard work gets tossed into the trash.

My point is, I see no harm in self-studying your way to take the MCAT just to see where you stand. If you do well, then continue. If you do poorly, then abort. If you do really well, then just apply immediately. Med-school admission is like a college athlete prepping himself for the NFL or NBA draft, or a professional athlete playing for a new free agent contract. You want to have a stellar season and then cash in. Why take the risk of following up a stellar season with a bad season?

Shraf · January 30, 2006, 9:48pm

Isnt that how most college classes are? Example: most econ courses and other classes you have exams in and no essays. You are really trying to stretch this argument way too far.

sakky · January 30, 2006, 11:16pm

Not really, because I have found grading in non-tech disciplines to be quite compressed. In other words, it’s rare to get a truly bad grade in, say, a humanities class. As long as you do all the work, the absolute worst grade you are going to get is maybe a C-. However, science classes, and premed classes in particular, have no hesitation in giving you a grade far worse than that.

However, to your specific point, I agree that many other tech courses are also rather fickle. And that only reinforces my exact point - why should MichEngGrad risk taking more of these courses if he doesn’t have to? He’s already got his degree. So he doesn’t “need” to take any more courses. So why do it unnecessarily? Like I said, with his existing transcript and presuming he gets a high MCAT score, that might well prove to be good enough to get him in. So if you’re good enough to get in without those courses, then why risk that unnecessarily by taking premed courses in which you might get bad grades which would then knock you out of the running? You have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Again, it’s like the football player who has a brilliant junior season such that he is a sure first-round draft pick, but chooses to stay in school for his senior year, but has a bad season, so his draft slot drops.

Now I agree that if your MCAT is borderline, then you may need to take those courses and hope that you get good grades in order to strengthen your application. But like I said, let him take the MCAT via self-study and see where he stands. If he absolutely bombs the MCAT, then even getting A+'s in those premed classes isn’t going to get him in, so it’s all a moot point anyway.

Engineering Grad with Masters

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