<p>momofthreeboys: I’m glad to have one ally in this thread :)</p>
<p>I think at some point all these apps come down to one commonality: name. THere are plenty of amazing schools that have acceptance rates over 40%, but they have a small name. A kid going for a great environment can get it at a number of places. But they can only get the “name” from the top 20 or so. So, they apply to a bunch and cross their fingers for an acceptance. It makes so much more sense to apply to just a few of these, a couple of good matches(still fantastic schools), and one financial safety if all else fails. </p>
<p>Confirming mathmom’s statement. Colleges have no way of knowing where else you apply. Highly selective colleges assume you are applying to other selective colleges and many openly advise you to do so because of the low odds of admission. Top schools will generally try to assemble the best class they can no matter what.</p>
<p>Some second tier colleges are known to protect their yield by putting large numbers of students on wait lists. Others use statistical models to estimate the likelihood a student will enroll based on geography, high school, stats…Others only admit students who have expressed strong interest in the school through visits or in interviews. Generally, from the CDS you can easily identify these schools. </p>
<p>Colleges know the tables are turned by April 1. Less than handful of schools get more than half of their regular admits to matriculate. Many excellent schools have RD yields in the 20-30% range including most LACs. Therefore they have to fight to enroll as many admitted students as possible. They roll out the red carpet for admitted students with elaborate campus preview events. That is when they try to close the deal with students and parents still on the fence. </p>
<p>The only leverage students have with a particular college is if they have several offers at other comparable colleges. That is when you find out the financial aid offer they made is not final after all. Our D’s aid offer was boosted by 25% to her top choice by making clear she had better aid offers elsewhere. All offers were need-based theoretically computed off the same exact documents, but we found large variations. Colleges have a lot of latitude in interpreting need and special circumstances. </p>
<p>Colleges view admissions strategically. Applicants should do the same.</p>
<p>Rocket Louise, if for you, it is all about the “name”, then you don’t need to go to a highly selective college. Assuming that it is all about prestige for other students is a not-too-subtle put down.</p>
<p>There are plenty of students that desire to be in an extremely capable, extremely intellectual environment. This is what the top schools offer them. Given the low admission rates for unhooked students, they need to apply to a lot of these schools to be sure of admission. For many families, cost is an integral part of the equation. I don’t see this as “gaming”. I see it as “trying to make your dreams come true”.</p>
<p>First it was unethical, now it is desperate. Don’t take this the wrong way, but I guess comparison shopping should also be evil. It takes good deals away from other more deserving people, the company has to charge more money from the rest to make up for less profit from the sale. If I can’t spend the time to get the best deal, why should anyone else be able to do it (tongue firmly in the cheek) :).</p>
<p>rocket6louise, it’s not about names for us. We couldn’t care less about how prestigious or highly ranked our son’s school turns out to be. (I don’t even know exactly where his schools sit in the USNWR rankings.) We just want him to go to a place where he can have a great, rewarding, challenging experience and come out ready for a happy, productive life. And we want to apply to exactly as many schools as it takes to maximize the likelihood of this happening. No more, no less.</p>
<p>Having hung around CC for several months now, I can perfectly understand why you would assume people have other motivations. But I suspect it’s less common than you think.</p>
<p>Maybe it is, and maybe with good reason. You never know.</p>
<p>A girl at my son’s school last year applied to 18 schools in search of the best financial aid. She came from a poor family and was determined to finish her bachelor’s degree in engineering debt-free. She was admitted to several excellent schools, including Duke, but ended up going to a southern state flagship school on a full ride. For her it clearly was not all about the name.</p>
<p>I know you weren’t talking about a case quite like this, but still, you never know what motivations lay beneath someone’s choices.</p>
It makes sense to do this if you really want to go to one of those good matches. But honestly, if a kid is interested in any of the most selective schools, he will probably be happy at quite a few of the others. Again, I can cite the experience of my son, who liked different things about a lot a schools, and who wanted to go someplace challenging. He did not want to go to Dartmouth or Cornell because of the location, so he didn’t apply there. But he really liked both Brown and Columbia, even though they are polar opposites in some respects. He applied to both, and would have been delighted to go to either.</p>
<p>My only requirement when I applied to colleges was that it be in or near a city and have good academics. Of course back in then it meant one reach (Harvard), one match (Brown) and one safety (UPenn). Those were the days!</p>
<p>No it doesn’t. Under that type of plan all else will fail and you will end up at your safety, most likely you state U. If that is the plan, you might as well save the trouble and money and just apply to the safety. </p>
<p>Unless you have a major hook or found the cure for cancer, your odds of admission are going to be low at all top 10 and most top 20 colleges. There is a very large element of chance even among academically qualified candidates. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford and the like could easily admit three times the number without any change in student body selectivity. If that is the type of school where you want to go, just picking a couple is just plain dumb. It doesn’t take a degree in statistics to tell you you will most likely won’t be admitted to any of them. Trying to cherry pick a few reaches simply does not work. </p>
<p>For a top tier candidate what are academic matches? Lower Ivies, Duke, Northwestern? Not so fast! They also routinely turn away top candidates. Many have already filled nearly half their class ED, so RD admission is nearly as competitive as a top tier school. </p>
<p>Financial safeties? In most cases, matches and safeties for academic purposes are seldom financial safeties. A top college will often be cheaper for a middle class student that even a public university.</p>
<p>To believe that you will get the same educational experience at a school that admits half of its applicants as a school that admits 10% is just naive. A high quality faculty is very expensive, labs are extremely costly to assemble if you study the sciences or engineering. What if you want to do research or study abroad? What if you want to be challenged among academic peers rather than be a big fish in a small pond? What if you want to go to a good grad or professional school? Graduate in 4 years? All of the these factors play in the equation.</p>
<p>You are on your own RocketLouise I’ve stated my case/opinion. Seriously, if someone is dirt poor with no $$ for college then yes, they need to search for a full ride or the best available deal. Most everyone else is simply trying to win the financial aid lottery and it impacts the kids, the administration budgets, and a whole bunch of factors and yes I suspect it impacts financial aid in some way. Yes, I think it’s great that with 3,000+ colleges and universities it’s adding probably 15,000 or more jobs to college campuses for newly minted and young graduates but we, the parents, not the kids, are paying for these employees and driving this application craziness not our kids who would probably be happier applying to only a handful of schools.</p>
<p>I had my daughter when I was young, and I didn’t go to college. I have raised my daughter paycheck-to-paycheck. There is no savings for college or anything else. I have bad credit so even though I am willing to take out loans for my daughters education I probably won’t be able to. There is no such thing as a financial safety for us. We are lower middle-class and may or may not qualify for financial need (complicated issue).
My Daughter is a top student who wants to go to a small college close to home. Her GC recommended applying to at least 10 schools to make sure she can review competing financial aid offers - her current list is 11. Not one school on her list is there due to their name and I don’t think that anyone should try to tell us that she can only apply to X number of schools. I honestly don’t think that it is unethical to apply to multiple schools when you hear so many stories (even on this thread!) about how someone applied to 15, 17, or 19 schools and got one great offer. </p>
<p>If she does not get a good enough offer she will go to community college. In California. I think that is reason enough right there :)</p>
<p>Jolynne - Stony Brook is 16k students, not any better than UDel (which is a financial safety and also heavily recruits in-state students with merit aid). And scholarship money would be competitive, not “safe.” But thanks for the suggestion!</p>
<p>rocket - Honestly, I think you are just rationalizing your personal inability to apply to more schools. Going back to my criteria–there are surprisingly few LAC-sized schools in the country, public or private, that offer both computer science and linguistics majors (though a ling major is not an absolute must for me). Narrow it down to schools that meet a reasonable amount of need (>90% on average). Choose a reasonable distribution among reaches and matches–quite frankly, I’ve yet to find a true safety (disregarding financials) that offers CS+ling without compromising on either ling or student body size. Closest is Macalester, which has a 40%+ admit rate (low match) and which I love–not particularly prestigious, though it is ranked just outside the top 25 LACs. Since both CS and linguistics are important to me, I am applying widely, though also to a few compromise-safeties.</p>
<p>Of course, some people do throw out 20 desperate apps; but it’s a mistake to characterize everyone who applies to 20+ schools as desperate.</p>
<p>So then, don’t look. I’m not sure why it would be anyone else’s business or concern anyway, any more or less than any other decision (hire a private counselor, get tutoring for the SAT’s, get a private coach for a sport, etc.). Why would you even know?</p>
<p>I haven’t read every post, so I apologize if this is redundant: My only contribution to this question is that our HS college guidance counselor told a story of an extremely gifted student who applied to 17+ colleges. He was, surprisingly, rejected by many. The counselor called the school to ascertain how they made their decision. Several Us Admissions Reps told the same story – they explained that this particular appllicant had 1) never visited 2) never interviewed 3)never attended information opportnity in area, etc. The school had no record of the student being interested in them, so they could only surmise that they were part of the “buckshot” approach and the student wasn’t serious about them.</p>
<p>So, I would suggest if you are going to apply to that many schools, at least show active interest in your top 6 or 7 valued prospects. Many schools do keep records and assign a number to prospective applicants. Their knowing you really want to go there does help.</p>
<p>There is nothing that could substantiate a claim like this. Take a look at admit rates and quality of education at the University of Chicago as just one example.</p>
<p>Last time I checked, the admit rate at Chicago was 28%, a far cry from 50%. Considering furthermore, that they don’t have an ED program, and therefore have to compete for top applicants with schools such as Harvard and MIT during regular decision, they have to cast a wider net. Applicant selectivity is essentially on par with Stanford. Until this year, they also did not take the common app which artificially reduced the number of applicants and hence increased the admit rate. Expect the admit rate to drop significantly next year. My bet is that their admit rate will be in the high teens within a few years.</p>
<p>Not sure I understand how a college specific app “artificially” reduces the number of applicants. I would think it would it would be quite telling in that those that apply want to go there.</p>
I’ve stated my case/opinion. Seriously, if someone is dirt poor with no $$ for college then yes, they need to search for a full ride or the best available deal. Most everyone else is simply trying to win the financial aid lottery and it impacts the kids, the administration budgets, and a whole bunch of factors and yes I suspect it impacts financial aid in some way. Yes, I think it’s great that with 3,000+ colleges and universities it’s adding probably 15,000 or more jobs to college campuses for newly minted and young graduates but we, the parents, not the kids, are paying for these employees and driving this application craziness not our kids who would probably be happier applying to only a handful of schools.</p>