<p>Ephiphany said “The applicant can very well play the same game. They need to interpret value as it relates to themselves.”</p>
<p>Ephiphany, I think you have hit the nail on the head. This sort of information is valuable and useful simply because we all here on CC spend so much time thinking that the ball is entirely in the hands of the schools we choose to apply to — when, in reality, applicants DO have some control over the results IF they target the schools they choose to apply to carefully — pick schools that need what you have to offer, and you retain some control. Pick schools that don’t need what you have to offer - or can get it from cheaper/easier/better sources - and you give up control.</p>
<p>Now, I’m not suggesting that everyone should only put schools on their list like this, just that, when you’re picking out matches and safeties, it’s probably a good idea to at least have some schools on your list that need or want what you can offer. The admissions game is a two way street.</p>
<p>Actually, I’m sure my son’s high test scores & attendance at a private school probably increase the volume of mail as well. Thanks for your thoughts, interesteddad and epiphany. I’m not sure how to sort all of this out, since my son’s interested college list is still VERY long.</p>
<p>Wow, I’m glad mine are settled, I would be obsessing with this info. My kids both cast a wide net in admissions as they both needed aid. Most offers for each kid were very similar but a few colleges were so far off the mark to leave us scratching our heads. For my son it was Emory, no money at all but he had great offers from Pomona, CMC, Trinity etc, My D had a few amazing offers but then mostly 1/2 price room/board at most all her schools except Pepperdine again nothing and Santa Clara only 11,000 grant off total price . I am relooking at this after reading the article. It doesn’t make me want to become a college rep. Just think how frustrating this must be to push for a student you know would be great and have these formulas get in the way! Thanks Carolyn for sharing all this!</p>
<p>This sickens me. I cannot believe that the system of higher education first formed in ancient Greece has devolved into a computerized, mechanized selection of people who can give the most money to the school; I cannot believe that schools have become businesses. Really, I believe the capitalistic mindset of America has advanced too far–now, even schools want to take advantage of an enormous market to develop their own financial interests.</p>
<p>Why should high school students break their backs to be admitted into institutions which only accept them for the money? For a good life? For a great career? Down the road, do you think you’d be happy knowing that your admission was based on your wealth, and not your intelligence?</p>
<p>I don’t see anything wrong with colleges acting like businesses. If they don’t, they go out of business.</p>
<p>The healthy approach is to simply embrace the nature of the transaction. Ultimately, it is no different than you as the car buyer and the college as the car dealer. The only complicating factor is that, in this business, there are two different kinds of currency – cash money and stats/qualifications. The price you pay is some combination of the two. </p>
<p>If you want to, you can pay more with stats and less with cash by selecting an appropriate merit aid school for which you have exceptional stats. Or, you can buy a school for which you have average stats, but expect to pay more cash because there won’t be any merit-aid discount.</p>
<p>I think many people would be perfectly happy knowing that. The notion that college should be available to all is a very recent one - post WWII, and that idea didn’t really get going until the 60s. In earlier eras college education was largely the fiefdom of well-to-do WASP males. Others such as women, Jews, minorities, and poor people had to scramble for the few opportunities open to them. I never heard of anybody being unhappy about being one of the privileged, favored ones back then; why should they now? </p>
<p>And I’ve never heard anyone today express unhappiness about being admitted for reasons other than intelligence either –> athletes, legacies, celebrities, developmental admits, etc. Never heard any of them crying over getting in.</p>
<p>interesteddad , as far as acting like a business, I really don’t have a problem with it either. Here’s my rub. In my job , I have to charge enough money to keep my lights on and maybe make a buck or two to buy new topsiders every couple of years. If I give everything away, I can’t help anybody because I am out of business. Now everyone is worse off than before, including me. That is just like the colleges. They’d go broke,too. </p>
<p>So I understand but here’s where the colleges and businesses differ. I tell my clients this: “Look, I have to charge you a fair rate for this or I can’t keep the lights on and then I can’t help you or anybody.” I don’t say “Hey. All you worthy poor people who can’t pay my hourly rate come on by and don’t you worry about the costs. Ol Honest Curmudgeon will figure something out. If you are worthy, we will take your case.”</p>
<p>I do a certain amount of pro-bono work. We all do, but we don’t pretend every potential client is assessed need blind. The colleges need to be more straight-forward. Direct. “We will take some poor people but we can’t take all of you because if we did we would go under and wouldn’t be here to help anybody.” Why don’t they just say it? Nope. They say 100% of need. Need blind. Hogwash. Any other business marketed like this would be facing the AG’s offices in several states.</p>
<p>Cur, I agree with you. My husband actually laughed (in an unfortunate loud snorting kind of way) in a standing-room-only room full of very intense and quiet people when an Ivy rep said “we’ll make this affordable. We are 100% need blind. Go ahead - apply. Over 70% of our students receive financial aid.”<br>
Been there done that. And our son was awarded some work study and a small loan for his financial aid. Okay, I’m not bitter about that any longer, honest. But I just want to get up in those meetings and tell people the truth. I’ve seen the heartbroken kids whose financial packages just weren’t doable. </p>
<p>And if my math is right this college takes in over a half million dollars a year in application fees. Hmmmmm</p>
<p>Very eye opening info, though not for Mini…</p>
<p>For a project I worked on a while back we got marketing info for our local area. You would be amazed what is on these databases… whether or not you donate to political causes, what your self-reported income is (gleaned from credit card apps) and more. So easy to know who makes what. </p>
<p>Furthermore so many ECs are “code” for I am wealthy. (Does the kid work 40 hrs a week all summer, or does he travel in the Swiss Alps?)</p>
<p>I think we all know “admit/denys” who are slogging through with many loans. Many of them may not even know they are at the wrong school and that elsewhere their “need” would be met much differently.</p>
<p>"This sickens me. I cannot believe that the system of higher education first formed in ancient Greece has devolved into a computerized, mechanized selection of people who can give the most money to the school; I cannot believe that schools have become businesses. "</p>
<p>The formulas don’t surprise me.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Colleges expanded greatly in the US because of the Baby Boom. Afterward, when birth rates dropped, in order to stay open, colleges had to market themselves.</p></li>
<li><p>The US probably has a higher percentage of people going to college than virtually any other country. We have thousands of colleges, virtually something for everyone. Heck, even some people who are developmentally disabled manage to go to some kind of colleges.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>No one is guaranteed that they can get into or can afford a high priced college. However, virtually anyone in this country who wants to go to some college can find a place that will accept them and that they can afford.</p>
<p>greencloth, yes it’s sad that they’ve come to this but universities are businesses; there’s a premium today on the college administrators, that includes presidents, who have the knack for raising money…seems they’re judged (among other things of course) by how much the endowment went up while they’re in charge. </p>
<p>Money, in the form of endowment drives everything, combined with the rankings hysteria. If you’re a top tier school you are compared to…Harvard, although your endowment of 700 million pales to their 40 billion or whatever. If you only have 2% of H’s $$$ you have to be creative, and smart in order to “compete” with them. I wouldn’t want to be a financial aid officer, the poor soul who has to dole out the (often) bad or “unfair” news.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting. This is all quite interesting but not really surpising. I have found it quite hard to believe that tuitions increase well beyond the inflation rate. This provides a partial explanation, increase tuition for those able to pay and give the difference to those you want to attract, i.e. high test scores.</p>
<p>One thing I have always believed was that schools try to determine which school is your first choice. For some this can be done by looking at where your CSS profile sent. I believe that I read one poster a while back saying that the only way around this is to send them all at the same time and enter them alphabetically . . . which would leave Yale far down the list of many applicants. ;-)</p>
<p>Not living in a target zip code by choice I still wonder how this will impact my senior in the application process. At the end of the day I am sure he will do fine.</p>
<p>Indeed, and I thank you for sharing with the board. It will be another day or so before I can check the magazine article for myself. “Know what you have to offer” is good advice for applicants. </p>
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<p>Yes. Families differ in their preferences and their ability to pay list price, and colleges differ in THEIR preferences and their ability to offer discounts from list price. Shop thoroughly and everyone finds a better match. </p>
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<p>I bought a certain Brand X college guide recently, and I was amazed, once again, at how many colleges there are in this country that NO ONE ever talks about here on CC. There is no shortage of opportunity to attend college in the United States. In most countries in which opportunity to attend college has expanded in postwar decades, notably in Japan, the national college “system” includes both tax-subsidized “public” colleges and user-subsidized “private” colleges. It takes both kinds of college to maximize college attendance opportunities for the greatest number of learners. It’s not a disaster if one college doesn’t accept you, as long as you have applied to more than one college. </p>
<p>On ZIP codes, I will note that I live in a ZIP code that has a median income a good bit higher than our family income. But I think our street address would peg us pretty accurately, as best I can tell from acquaintance with our immediate neighbors. I’m just glad to live in an ethnically diverse (GENUINELY diverse) neighborhood with high “life style” features like city trails that let us walk to shopping and to the public library. </p>
<p>I refuse to worry about my children’s prospects for college admission. That doesn’t mean I don’t worry but I tell myself that all my anxiety, private or public, about these issues is not going to change significantly their chances for getting in. They can change their chances by how they spend their teen years, and especially by how they spend the final year of researching colleges and honing their applications. </p>
<p>PACE all the statements in the magazine article, there does seem to be a small echelon of colleges that intentionally and consistently look for students of high academic ability and that will admit such students without regard to financial means. Most other colleges don’t enjoy the endowments necessary to be able to afford to do that, nor do they enjoy the reputations necessary to attract the same caliber of applicants that apply to the smaller echelon of colleges. But all the colleges in this country admit lots of students every year, because they have to in order to maintain their own existence.</p>
<p>Can’t schools just access your FAFSA before making an admission decision? Our family income is around 150K, the median for our zip code is 24K. Yes, 24K. We live in a sliver of semi-suburb attached to an impoverished city area. We stay so we can try to live within our means, we love the neighborhood, appreciate the diversity, etc. I’m very curious to know how closely schools look at the full application. Are students just a point on a graph, scores vs. median income? Do they take note of parent occupation and such, or is the zip code data relied upon heavily? My kids go to the local public school too.</p>
<p>MomOfour, I was wondering about that as I read through the thread. Frankly in my zip code there is a huge range in income. One can find a rental for between 1,000-1,500/month. There are also many estates available for over 2 million. I don’t know what information my zip code would have. MomOfour, IMO, you demonstrated that your zip code says nothing about your finances either.</p>
<p>Pywacket, I think that there are plenty of students who apply and they and their families do not wake up about the costs until reality hits them after gaining admission. I have read that kids get in, but are not able to attend bcs of cost. Some never fill out the profile or fafsa for a variety of reasons: don’t understand the process, parents refuse to give the information to the schools, and I guess other reasons as well. They are not necessarily telling schools that they can pay the full freight, but just never participated in the financial process.</p>
<p>I don’t see anything wrong with colleges acting like businesses. If they don’t, they go out of business.</p>
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<p>Yes, but what other business markets to you like crazy, and then when you’re ready to buy says “Wait a minute…we’re not sure you’re good enough to buy what we’re selling. So, here, fill out this long application, take several tests, get recommendations from people, and write an essay so we can decide if you’re worthy enough to buy from us.”??? It is a screwy kind of business if you ask me. :)</p>
<p>But again, the key to remember is that every college in the U.S. — even those at the top of the heap in terms of selectivity — have needs, whether it be higher revenue streams, higher stats, maintaining their stats, more artists, more scientists, more minorities, geographic diversity, or just a few darn good full pays. While it may be difficult to pinpoint each school’s needs exactly, if you think like a marketer yourself — know what you have to sell and its potential benefits - and then target your market carefully by including at least a few schools who need what you have, you’ll do fine. </p>
<p>Try to sell water to a college sitting next to a reservoir or where other equally qualified students are lining up with full buckets for miles, and you’re fighting an uphill battle. </p>
<p>Try to sell the same water to a school sitting out in the desert, and they’ll probably not only welcome you, but pay handsomely for what you’re selling. </p>
<p>But we - and our kids - need to understand the difference and plan college lists accordingly.</p>
but I tell myself that all my anxiety, private or public, about these issues is not going to change significantly their chances for getting in. They can change their chances by how they spend their teen years, and especially by how they spend the final year of researching colleges and honing their applications. </p>