Everything you wanted to know or should know about accounting

College Majors Business Majors
2521

<p>In recent years the Accounting degree has garnered a lot of press. Every other day I see an Internet story that speaks to which college Majors are most marketable. Low and behold, there’s Accounting popping up on the survey. I’m sure parents everywhere, struggling to pay high tuition bills, just eat up the premise of their son or daughter considering the Accounting Major. What could be better? As a result of this increased attention, a lot of “average” students have decided to give it a go, often enrolling in community college classes or at one of the growing number of for-profit universities. The Accounting degree is also hyped to immigrants and to older career changers. Some students will succeed and some will fail. Accounting is NOT an easy Major. When you combine the mandated Business & Economic prerequisites with Accounting coursework, the Major requires more overall required classes than any other undergraduate Major.</p>

<p>Returning to the theme of my initial posting, yes, if you’re a high achieving undergraduate student you can absolutely attend an average or below average institution of higher learning and still secure employment in corporate America or at a large public Accounting firm. What I will vociferously disagree with is the notion that these same high achieving students won’t benefit big time from attending a higher caliber university….(personally, academically, and in positioning themselves for future employment). The idea that everyone will take the same classes, study from the same textbooks doesn’t hold water with me. It casts university coursework as a skill set, attuned to taking up welding at a vocational school. The higher caliber universities will generally have better, more engaged teachers, smarter, more competitive classmates, and a strong, effective career placement staff. The program will be wrapped in a rigorous and demanding academic culture that breeds successful graduates. The best schools will require significant coursework outside of the Accounting curriculum to develop well rounded students. Classes will be taught by inspired educators who challenge students each and every day and are passionate about their subject matter. Classes will include a lot of give-and-take in predominantly smaller class sizes, (<30). There will be few, if any, large lectures or opportunities for online coursework to fulfill important requirements.</p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier, it’s a given that not every student can attend the premier schools. If you work hard, you’ll be fine at whatever school you attend. In most states, there are typically a half dozen target schools that the Big 4 recruiters focus on. If you have the opportunity to attend such a school, you’ll reap tangible and intangible rewards. It’s a path worth taking in my humble opinion. Good luck to all.</p>

2522

<p>prof, </p>

<p>If the tuition is discounted significantly, then yes, go to the brand name college/university. If the tuition is not discounted and you have to take out 3-4 times the amount of student loans v.s. the student who went to the non-brand name college/university, than there’s no additional benefit in the long run. </p>

<p>Studies show that the only times the brand name colleges show benefits is when students have no experience and are fresh on the market, the brand name college helps to break into decent entry level positions making decent starting pays. The brand name college also has deeper networking capabilities through their Alumni Network and Career Networks (recruiters potentially, etc). </p>

<p>In the age of social media and LinkedIn, and in this age where there’s countless articles/books on networking, I think you can successfully network without paying 3-4 times in the tuition. And the starting pay benefits diminish seeing as though by the time you and the non-brand name college guy get to 5-7 years of experience, you are making about the same amount of money. The difference is one is about done with the student loans and the other isn’t. </p>

<p>If we are talking Accounting alone, the ground jewel of this field is the CPA License and CMA License. You learn more in the CPA Review courses about Accounting than you do in college, and once you pass both the CPA and CMA examinations, does it even matter that you didn’t go to the non-brand name college anymore?</p>

<p>I’m obviously not telling anybody what they should do, I just guess in this age of $25,000 a year tuitions (before books), with an economy that’s trying to get on rock solid foundation but with still a lot of uncertainty, it would seem as though if folks could take a lower costing route to their credentials and still arrive at their destinations (CPA and CMA Licenses with a good position in an Accounting firm), then why not go that route?</p>

2523

<p>Profconfess notes, “The higher caliber universities will generally have better, more engaged teachers,… and classes will be taught by inspired educators at the higher caliber schools and will have smaller classes.”</p>

<p>Response, Sorry, I guess we will agree to disagree. I have taught at both higher caliber schools such as Maryland and at lower caliber schools such as community colleges et. al. Some of my colleagues have done the same. Moreover, at the very high caliber schools teaching and inspired faculty only exists in theory. I have found that they are MUCH more concerned with research! In fact, at some of the better schools , I have found that the teaching quality is actually inferior to that of some lower quality institutions and especially at community colleges, which seem to garner some greatly inspired teachers. Frankly, the only difference that I have seen is the median student quality, which is higher at schools with stiff admission policies.
Also, as you noted partners will recruit at a few local schools within the state. Thus, kids don’t necessarily need to go to the top school. in my state of Maryland, Univ. of Maryland is considered the top undergrad school in accounting. However, my son attended Towson University. Everyone of his accounting friends there who did better than a 3.0 got jobs. Even my son, who only had a 3.1 overall GPA and in accounting got several offers from mid size firms. I know a kid who attended “Salisbury State,” which I bet you never heard of who also got employed by a large firm. Admittedly, this isn’t a valid statistical sampling, but my experience seems to show that as long as a kid does reasonably well in their accounting curriculum and can interview fairly well, they should get hired from just about any decent school.</p>

<p>As for your points about smaller classes, my son’s accounting classes at Towson averaged about 12-15 students. Maryland ,which is supposedly higher caliber, averages a lot more students in their classes.</p>

2524

<p>1) I don’t advocate attending large, research type universities with >20K students. The schools I would point students to would have an enrollment of 3K-15K and place a strong emphasis on the liberal arts. Most have generally small, interactive classes, especially useful for upper level coursework. I stand by my earlier statement regarding the quality of faculty at better schools, but my opinion relates to the top tier of universities, not the typical state flagship university. As a college professor, your teaching is often weighed down by the skill and ability of the lowest common denominator sitting in your classroom. In a high caliber school, you benefit enormously from close proximity to bright people. I can’t stress this enough. </p>

<p>2) In many cases, the cost to attend premier schools can be somewhat comparable to lessor schools; given aggressive need based financial aid. Very few students today pay the sticker price. The net variance can often be modest and student debt levels reasonable.</p>

<p>Taxguy: Your mindset is very matter of fact & practical. I respect your opinion and convictions. Your commitment to keeping this useful thread alive is to be greatly commended. I, however, see the college experience a little differently, as sort of a critical foundation for the future, a place for learning and a place for growth. Perhaps an atypical conviction for a pragmatist who once taught Accounting!</p>

<p>Lastly, see the attached story from the WSJ Online from a few years back. It offers some weight to my argument.</p>

<p>[Engineers</a>, Accountants Say School Matters - WSJ.com](<a href=“Engineers, Accountants Say School Matters - WSJ”>Engineers, Accountants Say School Matters - WSJ)</p>

2525

<p>I haven’t fully captured your argument profconfess, but I believe you were stressing the importance of a premier school? You are absolutely correct, but taxguy isn’t making the correct comparison. There is an extreme difference between an average random school versus a UMich, Top LAC, or Ivy league school. Just the very fact that they got into those schools shows their intelligence, work ethic, and diverse skill set. You can’t compare some random school to another semi decent state school. The gap just isn’t there. </p>

<p>The problem with your argument is that people who haven’t witnessed or experienced the difference between the rigor and the amount of effort it takes to be successful at these schools have no idea what you are talking about. These are people that think the CPA is hard or think it means anything. CPA was just a 1 month vacation for me. I would never compare that test to someone who went to UC Berkeley undergrad. They probably studied a crapload more in 1 month than I did for that CPA test. Do you really think it’s a coincidence that IBankers or top law firms look at the top schools in the nation? Of course not,those students like you mentioned are competing and are immersed with people with way above average work ethic and above average inherent intelligence. </p>

<p>Also a caution: I’m in the airport with a 6 hour delayed flight with no sleep. I didn’t really read your posts. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your assertions.</p>

2526

<p>Dawgie, </p>

<p>What you just said, with all due respect, makes absolutely no sense lol. The CPA Exam is a 1 month vacation, yet, the test is failed by the majority who take it the first and second time? The CPA Exam is a 1 month vacation, yet, just about every report you read states that the CPA Exam is one of the hardest professional examinations in the world and arguably harder than the Bar Exam?</p>

<p>Just because you DID NOT go to a top ranked school, does NOT mean you lack intelligence, work ethic and diverse skill sets lol, I’m sorry that argument is ludicrous lol. There are a myriad of reasons people do not go to top ranked schools, a lot of them have to do with the COST to attend those schools. Other reasons have to do with the fact there’s only a limited amount of slots available in those schools, or the fact that the programs aren’t tailored to working adult students. </p>

<p>What you can prove is that students who got into top ranked schools were smart, you can defiantly prove that. What you CAN’T prove, is that they are somehow “smarter” than everyone else…you absolutely cannot prove that, because all reports, surveys and interviews with employers conducted by independent parties show that it’s the individual STUDENT that makes the difference in how successful they are in life, and NOT the college they attended. </p>

<p>In regards to large corporations and Wallstreet targeting the ranked schools more for recruiting than lower or non-ranked schools, again, that’s just POLITICS. That’s all that is Dawgie. Politics even comes into play on the selection into those schools in the first place, politics has nothing to do with the individual talents of the student. </p>

<p>But hey, to each their own, you are entitled to your own opinion but I will stick to the facts on my end though ;)</p>

2527

<p>Dawgie, </p>

<p>Also you said, “I would never compare that test to someone who went to UC Berkeley undergrad. They probably studied a crapload more in 1 month than I did for that CPA test.”</p>

<p>Here’s another problem, you seem to be overlooking that the majority of learning on a topic comes outside of the course. It’s the time you put into studying, reading the textbook, talking to your professor, etc. that truly determines how much you understand about a topic. Go across a variety of ranked and non-ranked schools, the concepts, theories, textbooks, are ALL the same. Accounting is Accounting…either you know Cost/Managerial, Financial and Tax Accounting or you don’t. Attestation is Attestation…either you know the procedures, rules and standards of the profession or you don’t. If you do (and have the work experience and finished your degree)…you are an Accountant, you are an Auditor, period. If you don’t know these topics and concepts, then you aren’t…period lol. </p>

<p>I’m not sure why some people don’t understand that, I think it’s a reason why a lot of these schools keep charging an arm and a leg AND a back to attend their institutions, leading with the false premise that you are somehow “smarter” by attending their institution over others. You aren’t smarter at all, but in some cases as I mentioned prior, you might have no CHOICE but to attend that top ranked overpriced school, because you are trying to get into a large corporation and the POLITICS require it. If you aren’t trying to get into a large corporation, but instead focusing on working in the small-medium sector, there’s absolutely NO NEED for the overpriced ranked college. Instead, just really KNOW your stuff, have REAL work experience with excellent references, and pass the CPA Exam or be in the process of doing so. You won’t have ANY problems working in Accounting.</p>

2528

<p>jotucker, see my responses in quotations please.</p>

<p>Dawgie,</p>

<p>What you just said, with all due respect, makes absolutely no sense lol. The CPA Exam is a 1 month vacation, yet, the test is failed by the majority who take it the first and second time? The CPA Exam is a 1 month vacation, yet, just about every report you read states that the CPA Exam is one of the hardest professional examinations in the world and arguably harder than the Bar Exam?
“The CPA is a joke, if the population of the applicants were more intelligent than it not have any regard”
Just because you DID NOT go to a top ranked school, does NOT mean you lack intelligence, work ethic and diverse skill sets lol, I’m sorry that argument is ludicrous lol. There are a myriad of reasons people do not go to top ranked schools, a lot of them have to do with the COST to attend those schools. Other reasons have to do with the fact there’s only a limited amount of slots available in those schools, or the fact that the programs aren’t tailored to working adult students.</p>

<p>“I never said those that never went to a lower ranked school have no intelligence or work ethic, I said the reverse. Those that went to a higher ranked school have already proved such by getting in”</p>

<p>What you can prove is that studnts who got into top ranked schools were smart, you can defiantly prove that. What you CAN’T prove, is that they are somehow “smarter” than everyone else…you absolutely cannot prove that, because all reports, surveys and interviews with employers conducted by independent parties show that it’s the individual STUDENT that makes the difference in how successful they are in life, and NOT the college they attended.
"That’s a fair point, but my assertion is that those that went to a top ranked school have already proven important skills that are necessary to succeed. Unfortunately, you have some idea that I said that those that didn’t went have no ability to succeed. I’m merely speaking about the majority.</p>

<p>In regards to large corporations and Wallstreet targeting the ranked schools more for recruiting than lower or non-ranked schools, again, that’s just POLITICS. That’s all that is Dawgie. Politics even comes into play on the selection into those schools in the first place, politics has nothing to do with the individual talents of the student.
“Not quite, the rigor at Ivy schools will blow 98% of the colleges out there away”</p>

<p>But hey, to each their own, you are entitled to your own opinion but I will stick to the facts on my end though</p>

2529

<p>Please see my responses in quotations:
Dawgie,</p>

<p>Also you said, “I would never compare that test to someone who went to UC Berkeley undergrad. They probably studied a crapload more in 1 month than I did for that CPA test.”</p>

<p>Here’s another problem, you seem to be overlooking that the majority of learning on a topic comes outside of the course. It’s the time you put into studying, reading the textbook, talking to your professor, etc. that truly determines how much you understand about a topic. Go across a variety of ranked and non-ranked schools, the concepts, theories, textbooks, are ALL the same. Accounting is Accounting…either you know Cost/Managerial, Financial and Tax Accounting or you don’t. Attestation is Attestation…either you know the procedures, rules and standards of the profession or you don’t. If you do (and have the work experience and finished your degree)…you are an Accountant, you are an Auditor, period. If you don’t know these topics and concepts, then you aren’t…period lol.</p>

<p>“I wasn’t even talking about this, but I agree with you. Don’t be confused with overlooking by simply not being in scope of what I am alluding to”</p>

<p>I’m not sure why some people don’t understand that, I think it’s a reason why a lot of these schools keep charging an arm and a leg AND a back to attend their institutions, leading with the false premise that you are somehow “smarter” by attending their institution over others. You aren’t smarter at all, but in some cases as I mentioned prior, you might have no CHOICE but to attend that top ranked overpriced school, because you are trying to get into a large corporation and the POLITICS require it. If you aren’t trying to get into a large corporation, but instead focusing on working in the small-medium sector, there’s absolutely NO NEED for the overpriced ranked college. Instead, just really KNOW your stuff, have REAL work experience with excellent references, and pass the CPA Exam or be in the process of doing so. You won’t have ANY problems working in Accounting. </p>

<p>"Overpriced? When was I talking about price? I was talking about rank. Fake premise of being smarter? You clearly don’t know the rigor, talent and amount of effort it takes to succeed at a top ranked school. The point I mentioned before is I am essentially talking to those ignorant of real work ethic. I’m talking to a typical 9-5 person who finds it tiring and probably thinks Big 4 hours are long. When you actually reach the work ethic, which is normal life to these people, you’d actually know what I’m talking about . I agree it’s hard to empathize in your situation. Note: I am being 100% serious when I refer to your perspective. </p>

<p>Dawgie: CPA CFA 1 year at F500 and 4 years at Big 4. 0 fatigue at all. If you want a real test, try the CFA. Average 6 months of study and 300 hours of prep for each level. Not some chump certification that took me 1 month."</p>

2530

<p>–For readers of this forum to expect an equal academic experience and employment outcome from studying Accounting at Mendoza at Notre Dame, versus Eastern Illinois University, is rubbish.–</p>

<p>Seriously? In-state cost of attendance at Eastern Illinois is 100K; Notre Dame it is 240K. </p>

<p>Do google searches of Linkedin to see how many EIU grads and Mendoza grads work for Big Four in Chicago. There are lots of both. Maybe there are other “employment outcomes” more desireable than Big Four for Mendoza accounting grads that we don’t know about.</p>

<p>Why would anybody drop a quarter million dollars for an accounting degree?</p>

2531

<p>profconfess notes,"
Taxguy: Your mindset is very matter of fact & practical. I respect your opinion and convictions. Your commitment to keeping this useful thread alive is to be greatly commended. I, however, see the college experience a little differently, as sort of a critical foundation for the future, a place for learning and a place for growth. Perhaps an atypical conviction for a pragmatist who once taught Accounting!"</p>

<p>Response: Now you are speaking my language! We have more in common than I originally believed. I too believe that accounting majors should take a LOT of humanities courses and probably more than they are taking now. If I had my way, every student would take a semester of logic and at least a semester of philosophy, literature, grammar and punctuation unless they place out of this requirement, a year of math, and at least a semester of economics plus a semester of public speaking/ making presentations. This is in addition to the current English requirements.However, I do believe that the size of the school can be immaterial. Large schools can attract top faculty and offer smaller classes if they want to. In addition, larger schools also tends to offer more course and majors.</p>

<p>You also note,by the way, the the class is limited to the, as you put it, “the lowest common denominator.” I can only say that I DEMANDED excellence from my class. If some kids couldn’t cut it, I was always available to help them. However, they needed to rise to my level of quality. I would NOT lower my standards in any way to accommodate the weakest links. If they couldn’t cut it, they needed to either get help or drop out! I would not and will not put up with pampering them or giving out overly high undeserved grades… I never did and never will do this. If this is what a “pragmatist” is, so be it. Frankly, I think it makes me more of an “Idealist.”</p>

2532

<p>Dawgie, </p>

<p>Well, if the CPA Exam is a piece of cake for you then obviously you are the smartest man in the world :). For the rest of the population, it’s arguably the hardest professional examination out there. And yes, the CFA is an excellent title to obtain as well if you are going into that arena in finance. </p>

<p>And in regards to rigor? Well, that’s debatable, there’s definitely a variance of busy work between institutions but again, I keep stressing the point, either you KNOW this stuff or you don’t. If you know it, then everything else really doesn’t matter. </p>

<p>These debates on the value of “brand name colleges” are really only good for those with no experience to be honest with you, or for those with experience who prefer to work in the larger firms. But a solid Accountant that passed the CPA Exam, who is licensed, with 5 years of experience, is a much more rounder and stand-out professional than the guy with no real experience and no CPA. </p>

<p>I stress experience and CPA over brand name colleges, save the $100,000 and invest it into a mutual fund or a hell even a CD and you will have a better return on that $100,000 than going to a brand name college to become the SAME THING and overall make just about the SAME as the guy that passed the CPA Exam from a no-name state career school. Being a CPA gives you that loophole to save money on the education, where being an attorney or medical doctor doesn’t provide such a loophole, you HAVE to go to the brand name college due to the licensing regulations. Not with Accounting though…</p>

2533

<p>Ok, if you are just planning on staying in Accounting, then I absolutely agree with you with regards of the loophole.</p>

2534

<p>It seems that the demand for accountants has reached an all time high:
According to Accounting World Daily news, "A new study examining supply and demand trends in accounting found that the profession is thriving—with college enrollments, degrees awarded, and demand for new accounting graduates all reaching all-time highs. "</p>

2535

<p>I suspect the study cited by taxguy is the one referenced in this Journal of Accountancy article. For those who might like to see the graphics supporting the study, here’s the link.</p>

<p>[Demand</a> for accounting grads reaches all-time high](<a href=“http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/News/20138181.htm]Demand”>Demand for accounting grads reaches all-time high)</p>

2536

<p>Yes, with the media and the government pushing everyone to “go to college,” they normally include Accounting as one of the top majors to go into. While I do believe everyone who decides to go to college should major in something that’s in demand, it’s just backwards to me to push someone to major in something because it quote, unquote “is a good major.” What if the person isn’t suited for Accounting? Nursing is a good major too, but I know there’s no way I could ever make it in that field lol.</p>

2537

<p>Hey everyone!</p>

<p>I completed my internship with Ernst & Young at the end of March, and was fortunate enough to receive a full-time offer. Unfortunately, I’ve had a tough crack at summer classes (I’m taking 15 credit hours) and I’m concerned my full-time offer is in jeopardy. It’s all but certain I’ll wind up with 3 Cs and 2 Bs. Two of those Cs are in accounting coursework.</p>

<p>I’m living in constant fear of losing my offer, and I’m curious if anyone has heard of someone getting an offer rescinded or the details of what “maintaining a strong academic record” means as outlined in my offer letter. I know that the 3 Cs certainly don’t help my cause, but I’m trying to judge how severe it will hurt. Thanks for any insight!</p>

2538

<p>Everything i read on here was very informative up till here. Thank you very much, specifically taxguy. I am debating whether or not to transfer to an accounting program. I have a pretty high gpa and i got good sat marks, but i do not know if it is for me. I hear only positive things about it… what are the downsides of all aspects of accounting? besides the stress at heavy tax times?</p>

2539

<p>penny, the best way to see if you like and will do well in accounting courses is to take one. Take a course at your local community college if necessary during the summer if you can’t take it at your current school.</p>

2540

<p>I decided to major in accounting, but I want to get a jump start. I know nothing about economics, or accounting.</p>

<p>Any books I should start reading, that will help me understand the subject efficiently? </p>

<p>Thanks in advance</p>