Explain How Degree in Computer Science is one of the highest paid & high unemployed

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>Another factor to consider is that CS salaries don’t tend to have a
huge amount of escalation over time.</p>

<br>

<p>I think that salary trends overall in the US have been negative for
the last few years.</p>

<p>CS compensation can include other things like stock options, employee
stock programs, bonuses, the ability to work from home and make your
own hours, not having the expenses of wearing suits to the office
everyday, and free drinks and food.</p>

<br>

<p>A law grad, for example, can expect to start their career at $60k, and
end it probably at $200k/year.</p>

<br>

<p>"The salaries of Massachusetts district attorneys are set at nearly
$149,000 a year by the state legislature, but the salaries of their
underlings vary.</p>

<p>"On the low end is the $37,500 salary paid to junior prosecutors in
Worcester County, the Springfield Republican reports. At the high end
is the $115,750 salary paid to the first assistant district attorney
in Hampden County.</p>

<p>[Pay</a> for Massachusetts Prosecutors Ranges from $37K to $149K - News - ABA Journal](<a href=“Pay for Massachusetts Prosecutors Ranges from $37K to $149K”>Pay for Massachusetts Prosecutors Ranges from $37K to $149K)</p>

<p>This is in Massachusetts where public employees get paid quite a bit.
I imagine that salaries are a lot lower in the Southeast.</p>

<br>

<p>A CS grad might start at $70k, but end at $140k (all
inflation-adjusted, of course).</p>

<br>

<p>I’d guess that 65% of all workers would be happy starting at $70K and
ending at $140K.</p>

<br>

<p>Since generally only the starting salaries are quoted, it might seem
that the CS grad is doing very well compared to the lawyer, but
finishing off one’s career at $140k/year and being permanently laid
off when one is 45 – certainly has far less value than being a
lawyer and working a full 30-40 years at rates that are often
dramatically greater.</p>

<br>

<p>One of my sisters worked at an M&A firm for 15 years and the company
closed down last year. There wasn’t enough business to sustain the
company. There have been several threads on the glut of lawyers in the
US and that may not be the Holy Grail that it once was (if it ever
was).</p>

<br>

<p>Guys who are at the top of their classes often can send out
hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes and not have anyone
actually recognize their talent, or look at their resumes. Google
receives over 1000 resumes per position they actually hire for. Do
you honestly believe Google has any way of really sifting out the
good from the bad with that many resume submissions?</p>

<br>

<p>If you’re at the top of your class and you’re sending out that many
resumes and not getting interviews, then you’re doing something wrong.
It sounds like the person is using a shotgun approach instead of
looking for positions for which they have qualifying skills for. This
means reading through job postings which are more specific along with
writing a cover as to why you would be good for the job.</p>

<p>It may also mean tapping your personal network or your alumni network.</p>

<p>If you’re at a top engineering school, then I would expect Google and
other companies to recruit at your school - you just have to pay
attention to when and where they do presentations and ask for resumes
to do local interviews.</p>

[GLOBALTRAVELER]

<p>It seems like there is something wrong as far as resume preparation, interviewing or selection of specific job openings. I cannot quite understand the difficulty of finding a job if the OP was from a top school.</p>

<p>Hell, I wasn’t even an official CS major (computational mathematics) and had less than a 3.0 GPA (as an undergrad) and was hired right out of school by Westinghouse in Pittsburgh (back when Westinghouse was big and existed) and have been doing software engineering for 20+ years. True, the “ceiling” will be $150k (private sector) and $225k (security clearance work) but as long as you stayed current with the technology and open to moving a little, your direct-deposit was pretty much guaranteed.</p>

<p>I understand that probably most CS majors (and probably Math too) desire positions that are very similar to either their research area and/or some of their technical electives but in the real world, less and less of those positions exist or are filled from within an employer. Business and capitalism runs this world (and at least the USA) so one may have to “get your foot in the door” with computer work that is in line with most employer’s financial goals. In other words, one may have to do some “regular 'ole Java/C++ development” before getting a position doing “parallel processing visualization” (I made that up).</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>It seems like there is something wrong as far as resume preparation,
interviewing or selection of specific job openings. I cannot quite
understand the difficulty of finding a job if the OP was from a top
school.</p>

<br>

<p>I kind of get that feeling too and would toss in the issue of
location. I understand that graduating in 2002 was difficult but
Mark77 implies that he didn’t get any interviews at all. On paper, it
sounds like he was better qualified than some that we’ve hired over
the years.</p>

<br>

<p>Hell, I wasn’t even an official CS major (computational mathematics)
and had less than a 3.0 GPA (as an undergrad) and was hired right
out of school by Westinghouse in Pittsburgh (back when Westinghouse
was big and existed) and have been doing software engineering for
20+ years. True, the “ceiling” will be $150k (private sector) and
$225k (security clearance work) but as long as you stayed current
with the technology and open to moving a little, your direct-deposit
was pretty much guaranteed.</p>

<br>

<p>I was hired as an engineer with a CIS background and no degree back in
the mid-1980s but I do think that it was a lot easier back in the
ice-age to get a job - if you had any kind of technical
skills. Companies would train you if they thought that you had
potential.</p>

<br>

<p>I understand that probably most CS majors (and probably Math too)
desire positions that are very similar to either their research area
and/or some of their technical electives but in the real world, less
and less of those positions exist or are filled from within an
employer. Business and capitalism runs this world (and at least the
USA) so one may have to “get your foot in the door” with computer
work that is in line with most employer’s financial goals. In other
words, one may have to do some “regular 'ole Java/C++ development”
before getting a position doing “parallel processing visualization”
(I made that up).</p>

<br>

<p>I think that the fancier jobs are getting taken by those with MSCS
degrees. The trend that I see is in jobs getting more specialized or
reqiring multiple specialty areas.</p>

<p>It is somewhat of a gamble to take a regular programming job if you
really want to work on cutting edge stuff as you will get farther
away from it unless you do it on the side or go to school part-time.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@GLOBALTRAVELER

It seems like there is something wrong as far as resume preparation, interviewing or selection of specific job openings. I cannot quite understand the difficulty of finding a job if the OP was from a top school.

</p>

<p>The problem is that he was unlucky enough to graduate in an industry downturn in 2002, did not get a job then, and became long term unemployed in the field. Employers seem to treat the long term unemployed as unemployable, and the lack of employment also means having fewer contacts in the industry that may be willing to hire him, at least as a contractor or consultant.</p>

<p>What is described in the following article is related:
[Recession</a> Generation Will Spend Less for Life - The Daily Beast](<a href=“http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/01/08/the-recession-generation.html]Recession”>http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/01/08/the-recession-generation.html)</p>

[Mark77]

<p>

The problem is that he was unlucky enough to graduate in an industry downturn in 2002, did not get a job then, and became long term unemployed in the field. Employers seem to treat the long term unemployed as unemployable, and the lack of employment also means having fewer contacts in the industry that may be willing to hire him, at least as a contractor or consultant.

</p>

<p>Yeah, basically that’s it. I get the occasional recruiter calling me because my resume is pretty impressive – but after I tell them my story, they basically ‘realize’ that no matter how much they want to help, the employers just aren’t interested. 2002 was probably the worst year out of them all to graduate in as it was the beginning of the massive layoffs.</p>

<p>It doesn’t help that most CS-related job postings seem to demand 5-10 years of experience for what essentially are entry-level roles either. The employers whine and cry that they can’t find people, but they generally ignored a good 5 years worth of grads, and placed a ridiculously high bar on what they were looking for experience-wise.</p>

[sakky]

<p>Globaltraveller & Mark77, you seem to have a golden opportunity to connect with each other and share information. After all, globaltraveller, you’ve always discussed the bounteous opportunities available in CS/IT for high-paying jobs with stellar job security and relaxed work environments. I’m sure that Mark77 would like to know far more about that.</p>

[yagottabelieve]

<p>

I was hired as an engineer with a CIS background and no degree back in
the mid-1980s but I do think that it was a lot easier back in the
ice-age to get a job - if you had any kind of technical
skills. Companies would train you if they thought that you had
potential.

</p>

<p>In my experience, this is true. Companies are less likely to train, or even let you learn on the job, on your own time (working overtime to get yourself up to speed on a project). Instead, they want the “five-pound butterfly” – the employee who has already done the job, and can be immediately plugged into the position.</p>

<p>Also, the computer field has become quite a bit more specialized. When I first started out, if you were reasonably adept at programming plus had some sysadmin and documentation skills, that made you a very valuable person, even if you were not a stellar student. Having multiple skills meant companies could use you in a variety of ways. This is not as true today as it was. System administration and tech documentation are their own specialties (as is programming). Practically speaking, a programmer will not have the deep expertise of a tech writer or sysadmin in those respective fields.</p>

[ChrisTKD]

<p>Mark77 writes “but after I tell them my story, they basically ‘realize’ that no matter how much they want to help, the employers just aren’t interested.”</p>

<p>No one wants a long-term unemployed applicant because they are afraid of picking up a team member who subtracts value from the organization. The thinking goes that if you are unemployed for so long then something must be wrong with you. You are going to have to tell a different story to recruiters. Perhaps you could say that you wanted to start your own company and worked as a freelancer for the last ten years. After giving that a shot you realize that you need to settle down with more steady employment at a company. etc etc etc.</p>

[Mark77]

<p>

No one wants a long-term unemployed applicant because they are afraid of picking up a team member who subtracts value from the organization.

</p>

<p>Of course. And they say the same stuff about the new grads as well. The newspapers are full of random articles of people getting hired at Google or Facebook (or other big brand-name tech companies), but nobody seems to care about the guys who don’t happen to be so lucky to ‘get noticed’ by those organizations. </p>

<p>College was easy; you open up the calender, look at the classes required, pick the classes that fulfill the requirements, put in 4-5 years of hard work, and voila, you graduate. With ‘new grad’ postings in the CS industry basically non-existent for the past decade, nobody has been able to give me a coherent description of how to acquire the experience for the positions requiring 5-10 years of experience.</p>

<p>Worse, when firms started hiring again circa 2005-2007, they only either wanted very highly experienced people, foreigners, or new grads. Nobody gave a damn about the good 5 years worth of graduates that were cast off. Obviously those people are filling the resume queues, and employers are ignoring a huge resource when they toss those people aside.</p>

[GLOBALTRAVELER]

<p>

Globaltraveller & Mark77, you seem to have a golden opportunity to connect with each other and share information. After all, globaltraveller, you’ve always discussed the bounteous opportunities available in CS/IT for high-paying jobs with stellar job security and relaxed work environments. I’m sure that Mark77 would like to know far more about that.

</p>

<p>I can dive into that in a couple of days. I have been on a golf mini-vacation and logged on since I need to start packing for an early hotel pickup.</p>

[al6200]

<p>

With ‘new grad’ postings in the CS industry basically non-existent for the past decade

</p>

<p>What makes you think this? From what I’ve seen, the software engineering job market is better than pretty much any other entry level job market. Not all of the jobs are Facebook/Google quality, but it seems like pretty much all organizations need some software people.</p>

[guitarhero5]

<p>

Yeah, basically that’s it. I get the occasional recruiter calling me because my resume is pretty impressive – but after I tell them my story, they basically ‘realize’ that no matter how much they want to help, the employers just aren’t interested. 2002 was probably the worst year out of them all to graduate in as it was the beginning of the massive layoffs.</p>

<p>It doesn’t help that most CS-related job postings seem to demand 5-10 years of experience for what essentially are entry-level roles either. The employers whine and cry that they can’t find people, but they generally ignored a good 5 years worth of grads, and placed a ridiculously high bar on what they were looking for experience-wise.

</p>

<p>Sorry, can I ask what school and GPA you graduated with? A range for both is fine.</p>

[yagottabelieve]

<p>

What makes you think this? From what I’ve seen, the software engineering job market is better than pretty much any other entry level job market. Not all of the jobs are Facebook/Google quality, but it seems like pretty much all organizations need some software people.

</p>

<p>Sure, there are job opportunities out there. Mark77 has noted what others have also – that the positions call for specific skills and several years of professional experience – there are more of those positions available than positions for new grads with little or no professional experience, or grads who have somewhat different professional experience than what’s being sought (but could learn how to do these jobs on their own time).</p>

<p>In my own job search, companies that I’ve been looking at, such as Cisco, Juniper, VMware, Dell, F5, Symantec, and a few others, require several years of professional experience and specific skills. Even Google, on the questionnaires they sometimes require one to answer as part of the application process, ask you to rate yourself on a scale of 1-10 on particular OSes, programming languages, protocols, etc. One generally does not get to the level of 10 without either professional experience or being recognized as a world-class leader on an open-source project.</p>

[al6200]

<p>I just did a search on my school’s job board. JHU isn’t software oriented at all (in fact, most CS majors I know are pre-med or pre-PhD, relatively few are entrepreneurial or interested in software jobs) but I would estimate that perhaps 1/4 of all listed entry-level job posts are for software engineers. </p>

<p>Moreover, I’d say that half or more of all jobs at the very least, see software engineering experience as a plus. Even if they don’t see it as a plus, a small employer may still like a candidate who can offer to do some programming in excel or webmaster work in addition to her normal duties. </p>

<p>

In my own job search, companies that I’ve been looking at, such as Cisco, Juniper, VMware, Dell, F5, Symantec, and a few others, require several years of professional experience and specific skills. Even Google, on the questionnaires they sometimes require one to answer as part of the application process, ask you to rate yourself on a scale of 1-10 on particular OSes, programming languages, protocols, etc. One generally does not get to the level of 10 without either professional experience or being recognized as a world-class leader on an open-source project.

</p>

<p>Seriously? You can’t just look at the qualifications list and read a book on every OS / language that they list. Languages in the same paradigm usually don’t take too long to pick up. I’d generally say that I’m a 5-6 in any imperative language (even if I’ve never seen it before), an 8-9 in any language where I’ve written a program or two, and a 10 in a language where I’ve written numerous programs. In my opinion an employer would be foolish to hire someone primarily on the basis of what languages / technologies they’ve used before, since they are so similar. </p>

<p>Honestly I think a big part of the problem is that computer science majors, by and large, are bad at marketing themselves and their skill set. If they want to see a language/skill that you’ve never used before, you can just talk about a similar technology that you’ve used or discuss a general interest in learning about that technology.</p>

[yagottabelieve]

<p>

Seriously? You can’t just look at the qualifications list and read a book on every OS / language that they list.

</p>

<p>Here is a typical post for a Juniper software engineering position from LinkedIn:</p>

<p>Job Description</p>

<p>Software Engineer Staff - Virtualization Technologies</p>

<ul>
<li>Drive a distributed networking product design and architecture based on Linux virtualization platforms

<ul>
<li>Interact with senior technical staff and management to define the technical future products roadmaps and architectures</li>
<li>Design, develop and maintain virtualized software simulation environment </li>
</ul></li>
<li>Interact with various departments using the simulation environment to enhance, maintain and develop features

<ul>
<li>Provide technical expertise in the areas of orchestration and management of virtualized infrastructures and its networking impacts</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>

<p>Desired Skills & Experience</p>

<ul>
<li>BS/MS in computer science or related field

<ul>
<li>10+ years of experience in software design and development under Unix environment</li>
<li>Expert level programming experience in C, C++, Perl</li>
<li>Strong knowledge of Kernel and system level development on Unix, Linux (CentOS/RedHat) </li>
</ul></li>
<li>Experience in TCP/IP related protocols, DHCP, DNS, NFS, Distributed File Systems etc. is a must

<ul>
<li>Excellent hands on experience in one of the virtualization technologies such as (KVM/XEN) is a msut</li>
<li>Working experience and knowledge of L2/L3 protocols is a strong plus </li>
</ul></li>
<li>Strong analytical and problem resolution skills required</li>
</ul>

<p>

Languages in the same paradigm usually don’t take too long to pick up.

</p>

<p>They’re not looking for people who’ve just “picked up” a language. They’re looking for people who have considerable software engineering experience.</p>

<p>

I’d generally say that I’m a 5-6 in any imperative language (even if I’ve never seen it before), an 8-9 in any language where I’ve written a program or two, and a 10 in a language where I’ve written numerous programs. In my opinion an employer would be foolish to hire someone primarily on the basis of what languages / technologies they’ve used before, since they are so similar.

</p>

<p>Possibly, but companies like Google do exactly this. If you say you are a 10 in Python, they could have Guido van Rossum interview you. The creator and principal architect of a programming language would be able to quickly stump you, if he or she wanted to.</p>

<p>

Honestly I think a big part of the problem is that computer science majors, by and large, are bad at marketing themselves and their skill set. If they want to see a language/skill that you’ve never used before, you can just talk about a similar technology that you’ve used or discuss a general interest in learning about that technology.

</p>

<p>On these interviews, you can talk about anything you want, but the company is at its discretion to turn you down, if they don’t hear the answers they want. I’m not saying I agree with this philosophy, but since so many (arguably talented) people are applying to these companies, they can pretty much pick and choose whoever they want. Some of them complain, of course, that they can’t find the right people, but that’s largely because they can’t hire someone they want away from another company.</p>

[yagottabelieve]

<p>

Moreover, I’d say that half or more of all jobs at the very least, see software engineering experience as a plus. Even if they don’t see it as a plus, a small employer may still like a candidate who can offer to do some programming in excel or webmaster work in addition to her normal duties.

</p>

<p>I should also point out that if you do programming in Excel, JavaScript, etc., you will develop expertise in that, but not in the areas of software engineering that companies like Cisco, Dell, Symantec, etc. are looking for that require other skills. You won’t be gaining expertise in developing networking stack code, hypervisor code, etc. The skills of web and database (application) programming are not considered transferrable to the skills of virtualization, network protocols, etc. (and vice versa!). The long and short is that if you find yourself out of work, you may have to spend quite a bit of time developing the expertise in some other thing that carries you through interviews where a considerable amount of expertise is sought (at the discretion of the company).</p>