<p>This entirely misses Calmom’s point–the offer to trade is based on the perceived hardship, as expressed by a few posters here, of having more money rather than less.</p>
<p>Calmom is fully aware of being fortunate to have things the poor do not. Her offer is in response to those begrudging the supposed “advantage” of being low income. I’ve never seen her complaining about the unfairness of having less; in fact, she conveys a healthy acceptance of her responsibilities, and her blessings in comparison to those who are truly disadvantaged.</p>
I don’t begrudge charity or government benefits given to those who are clearly less fortunate than I. </p>
<p>And I don’t whine about the system. I deal with it. My kid was offered a really great combination of merit aid and need-based aid at UC Santa Cruz and UC Santa Barbara - either college would have cost me less than $10K annually out of pocket. Those are FAFSA-only schools that don’t consider my home equity or my ex-husband’s income. It is MY CHOICE to send my daughter to private school that raises MY share of payment based on what SOMEBODY ELSE earns. So I DEAL WITH IT. (I don’t go around blaming others or “the system” for MY CHOICES) </p>
<p>I sometimes pay more for stuff and I sometimes pay less. I don’t worry about what the next person over is paying. That’s not my problem and it has nothing to do with me. I do believe that if I own a house and the college makes me pay more because of it, even though I cannot tap my home equity because my income isn’t enough to qualify for a HELOC – I still am still better off than the person who makes the same income but does not own a home. And if I make $45K and have to pay $20K next year for tuition, and some other parent makes $30K and only has to pay $5K … I’m better off than that person. I’d rather make the $45K than the $30K … even though in my hypothetical the cost-differential is the same.</p>
<p>OK. This one really is my last post on this thread. </p>
<p>“I don’t begrudge charity or government benefits given to those who are clearly less fortunate than I.” </p>
<p>I challenge you to go back thru this thread and find a case where I have begrudged anyone anything. In fact, I have explicitly said I dont begrudge anyone several times. Find a single post where I say something negative about someone less fortunate than I am. You may “percieve” it, but its a false perception. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, I have been directly called a bigot: "It muddies the eliteness of the school in their eyes if working class families can afford to send their kids there. " I’ve been called a whiner and been accused of not caring for those less fortunate than myself. Re-read my posts with an open-mind and will not find those sentiments. You will find the following themes: </p>
<p>1) I point out that it is incorrect to PRESUME that, just because someone make a good salary today, that doesn’t mean they have always made that salary. It’s also wrong to PRESUME that people making a good salary all live extravagant lifestyles. </p>
<p>2) I do resent having to pay $10Ks-100Ks of dollars more for any product than someone else does. Doesn’t mean I want others to pay more. Doesn’t mean i begrudge them. Doesn’t mean I think they’ve slacked off in life. Doesn’t mean I want to switch places. Doesn’t mean I don’t care about them. All of these points are PRESUMED by folks reading. </p>
<p>“This entirely misses Calmom’s point–the offer to trade is based on the perceived hardship, as expressed by a few posters here, of having more money rather than less.”</p>
<p>It is a hardship as expressed here. The case in point of lottery winners is a perfect example. Acquisition of wealth and the maintenance thereof takes certain characteristics - those that don’t have those characteristics or that those that can’t acquire them in a hurry will frequently squander newfound wealth. Our current subprime mortgage crisis is a good example of this.</p>
<p>“Calmom is fully aware of being fortunate to have things the poor do not. Her offer is in response to those begrudging the supposed “advantage” of being low income. I’ve never seen her complaining about the unfairness of having less; in fact, she conveys a healthy acceptance of her responsibilities, and her blessings in comparison to those who are truly disadvantaged.”</p>
<p>The problem discussed here is a higher discount being given to those with less. The rest is tripe.</p>
<p>“And I don’t whine about the system. I deal with it.”</p>
<p>Seems to me that you do both. You certainly whine enough about those that make more than you do.</p>
<p>“My kid was offered a really great combination of merit aid and need-based aid at UC Santa Cruz and UC Santa Barbara - either college would have cost me less than $10K annually out of pocket. Those are FAFSA-only schools that don’t consider my home equity or my ex-husband’s income.”</p>
<p>One of the biggest killers to wealth accumulation or maintenance is divorce. That either implies a poor choice at the beginning or a set of poor choices down the road.</p>
<p>“It is MY CHOICE to send my daughter to private school that raises MY share of payment based on what SOMEBODY ELSE earns. So I DEAL WITH IT. (I don’t go around blaming others or “the system” for MY CHOICES)”</p>
<p>One of the things that those with means do is to try to change the choices using legislative or other means. You are receiving a public benefit controlled by a private party. I certainly have a right to complain about how my tax dollars are being spent, especially by third parties.</p>
<p>“I sometimes pay more for stuff and I sometimes pay less. I don’t worry about what the next person over is paying.”</p>
<p>Do you know what a GSA agreement is?</p>
<p>Perhaps you would prefer to always just pay the highest listed price for a product. But no, you filled out an FAFSA, right?</p>
<p>"That’s not my problem and it has nothing to do with me. I do believe that if I own a house and the college makes me pay more because of it, even though I cannot tap my home equity because my income isn’t enough to qualify for a HELOC – I still am still better off than the person who makes the same income but does not own a home. And if I make $45K and have to pay $20K next year for tuition, and some other parent makes $30K and only has to pay $5K … I’m better off than that person. I’d rather make the $45K than the $30K … even though in my hypothetical the cost-differential is the same. "</p>
<p>HELOCs are poison for those that can’t control themselves and we clearly have a lot of those people around. What your neighbor paid for his home definitely has an effect on you.</p>
<p>[1) I point out that it is incorrect to PRESUME that, just because someone make a good salary today, that doesn’t mean they have always made that salary. It’s also wrong to PRESUME that people making a good salary all live extravagant lifestyles.</p>
<p>2) I do resent having to pay $10Ks-100Ks of dollars more for any product than someone else does. Doesn’t mean I want others to pay more. Doesn’t mean i begrudge them. Doesn’t mean I think they’ve slacked off in life. Doesn’t mean I want to switch places. Doesn’t mean I don’t care about them. All of these points are PRESUMED by folks reading.]</p>
<p>They can’t see it because they only see one side of it unlike those that can see both sides. It’s a blindness.</p>
<p>And there’s the rub!
We all want it and we all think someone else is more qualified to pay for it.
I say be careful what you wish for.
Good one, garland ;)</p>
<p>Oh, Garland, I hope you are not meaning me. I don’t resent not getting aid. I resent the situation. We had made education a top priority and despite saving and planning, we are at the point where we cannot responsibly afford it even with our income and assets. We look at the whole picture and have to come to the conclusion that it is not a wise move for us to pay more that $30-35, including loans for college for our kids. No blame here, just a sad situation for us, but no tragedy.</p>
<p>However, there are ways to work with this. There are schools and options at that amount. And for less. We have to look for them. So we come to places like CC to look for some ideas. </p>
<p>By working the college list with an eye on cost, our son only had one college that did not come under our budgeted amount when all was said and done. But it did take research and work to come to this end, not just blindly applying to the colleges to which we were the most familiar, and just doing things by the book and instructions the counselors were giving us. </p>
<p>Did not expect financial aid, did not apply for financial aid, and would not want to see financial aid for upper incomes. It’s just that when you have held the belief for so long that education quality is an important thing to give to your kids, that giving them options is important to you, and you find that it is rapidly becoming more and more of a luxury, even as colleges are saying they want the doors open to all without prejudice, I think there is resentment. The fact of the matter is that most every kid is limited in college choice by who is their parents are. I don’t care if they are billionaires. If they refuse to pay for the college, and the kid has no money, the kids are going to be limited, the way the current system works, severely. In fact, the kid whose parents don’t have the money could be in a better situations since if they fill out the forms, they might get financial aid. And I have seen kids (usually in divorce situations) stuck in this situation.</p>
<p>My answer is, I don’t expect the money to come from anywhere besides our income/savings. I’m paying it. I just wish I didn’t have to pay so much. </p>
<p>Cpt–no, I was responding to the comments more immediately above. I’ve always respected your views and generosity of spirit.</p>
<p>And I agree with your last point especially–those whose parents have the funds but won’t pay are in a tough position. It always saddens me when I read one of those stories.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse - please do not take this the wrong way.</p>
<p>would you agree that if you only had 1 or 2 kids instead of 5 (I think you have 5 kids)?, then your entire financial picture would be different.</p>
<p>I see young families having 3 or 4 kids over a short period of time and ALL I can think about is how are they paying for it now and in the future. I know someone who had 3 kids in less than 4 years. She makes good money (over 90K with recent promotion). Her child care costs are over 20K a year! I have no idea what her husband does. </p>
<p>Nobody knows what the future will bring or what college will cost 15-20 years from now. I came from a small family (2) and have 1 child. I know I’ve heard the stories about how people came from large families and managed… but that was then and this is now. I just don’t think enough people consider the economic impact of having children! </p>
<p>A coworker of mine just had her first baby, at age 40. But this is a girl that probably has been saving money with an eye to the future ever since before she ever got married at age 37. I bet that 18 years from now, she won’t be on cc saying “how can I be expected to pay for college if I’m retiring in a couple of years”.</p>
<p>Our society has made raising children very expensive. I know a family with five kids that homeschools and they’ve produced amazing results on one modest income.</p>
<p>Which 2, SueofPhilly? If we just had our first two, we would be done by now. So, yes, the number of kids we have does impact the situation. However, had we just had the last two, the events of the last 5-10 years have been such that it would still put us in a tight spot. I truly do not recommend large families without a lot of thought and planning. It’s not just a financial strain but can be a huge emotional strain too. You can spread yourself too thing if something bad happens that needs focus. </p>
<p>You really just don’t know what will occur with your coworker. My brother and SIL started their family very late, and should have been all set. And they would have, until my brother was dxed with a severe medical issue on the eve of accepting a great job that would have made all the difference in the world in their finances. My SIL was 6 month pregnant, they had just moved to a different state and bought a house, and had a 2 year old when this occurred. They went from having plenty of money to save to barely making it, and that was with health insurance that we beat into paying most of the medical costs. </p>
<p>SIL’s company RIFed her, and the only job with promising prospects she could find in a year’s search was in a high COL area. Two jobs that she had considered disappeared before she could report to work as the economy was rapidly going down hill. The two little ones were sick all year, very sick, allergic to mold and they lived in a mold filled house, they discovered. They are on their feet now, but scared about the future. Forget college savings or 401-K contributions. They are finding that nursery schools in the area are very expensive and that nearly all of the kids go. Brother finding it difficult to work at home with two kids under kindergarten age there, especially one who gets into everything. They had to move from mold house which was an issue that had be settled in court since they broke a lease, find another place to rent…I can go on. But they make what is considered an upper 5-10% of the income scale. No tears for them. So many have it far, far worse. But if I had the extra money, I would send it to for my niece to go to a private nursery school as she seems to need more social interactions with kids her age. They are raising the kids to be bilingual but the little girl is having some issues with that along with social issues. With a stay at home dad and being new in the area, it’s not as easy for her to find kids her age, especially since my B is working free lance at home.</p>
<p>I had my kids spaced pretty evenly out and not close in age which just lengthened the time period that they were little. Having 3 or 4 kids close together is very difficult when they are infants, but it does shorten the time you spend in the “phase” years. Also for those making true middle class and even upper middle class salaries, there can be an opportunity for financial aid if you have more than one in college. We were really pretty close to getting some Stafford subsidized this year; had we one more in college, we would have been eligible for that, and maybe some financial aid from the schools itself. My friend with a daughter followed with a set of twins, put all three of them in college at the same time and saved a significant amount doing this She would have qualified for very little had she had them follow each other in school after each one was done.</p>
<p>The whole thing with college is that if you have financial limits, you need to look for colleges that will show they love you by giving you financial incentives for your student to attend. The better the academic credentials and hooks, the better the choices your student has. </p>
<p>I think one of the best threads on CC is MomfromTexas’s free ride colleges. It does open a whole dimension of college search that very few do. It is very easy to cherry pick the top name schools, disregarding the cost and come up with an impressive college list. Much, much more difficult to find the true deals that are not well known. That is really what a good college search does, and very few folks do this. What’s a shame is that few high school counselors do this either. They are, as a group very unimaginative in the options they present, and I’m including some independent school counselors that exclusively do college admittance counseling and are experienced and trained to do so. What a shame. </p>
<p>I know that a local school here has really upped the counseling staff numbers, and the kids now spend mandatory time meeting for college info, but it’s the same old stuff that they are getting. This year the top three colleges that kids chose are the same ones that have always topped the list, and I know that part of the reason is the familiarity. Also most counselors divorce themselves from the financial and merit aid part of colleges. My sons’ school outsources for that, in fact.</p>
<p>My parents make a reasonably good combined income of low $100Ks, so they can afford to pay more for me and my sister than someone who makes $40K. My Dad went to college essentially for free in the 1970’s (had $55/mo in NDSL student loans for 10 yrs but that was it) because his family only made $20K back then. It seems fair to me that similar concessions are given to similarly struggling families today.</p>
<p>The only part of the whole FA formula that I don’t understand is this: My sister and I both are awarded Stafford loans of $5500 per year, which we own (not our folks) and which we have to pay back when we graduate. I don’t understand why EVERY college student who qualifies for aid isn’t made to take these loans. Even the poorest college student whose family income is $20K per year (and EFC = 0) will have the same earning power as me with my bachelor’s degree. I can see the parent column being = 0 for those families, but to then put me in the hole for $20-30K and not expect other similarly able students to do the same seems illogical.</p>
<p>That’s my primary gripe with the FA system. The rest is defensible.</p>
<p>If the answer is “Well, your family will probably pay off your loan for you anyway”, then that’s a redirection ploy. The money is in my column on the ledger and it’s my debt and I know for a fact that I’m on my own to pay it off. Regardless of parental income, all college grads should be made to graduate with loans.</p>
<p>[Even the poorest college student whose family income is $20K per year (and EFC = 0) will have the same earning power as me with my bachelor’s degree.]</p>
<p>This is untrue. Look at university salary surveys by major for your school or other schools.</p>
<p>“I don’t understand why EVERY college student who qualifies for aid isn’t made to take these loans.”</p>
<ul>
<li>Some students get free rides.</li>
<li>Some students earn enough in a job to pay for college expenses</li>
<li>Some students have their employers pay for their college expenses</li>
<li>Some students are children of professors so they get a mostly free ride</li>
</ul>