<p>I honestly don’t think you understand the rationale. With obese people, the leptin issue will just take longer to present itself. It’s a much more prevalent issue in people with less to lose.</p>
<p>But trust me on this. You will hit the proverbial wall when it comes to fat loss. And Leptin will be the culprit.</p>
<p>I await any scientific rationale of yours that explains your position.</p>
<p>By the way, its 2000 to 3600 Calories. Not 4500.</p>
<p>Maintenance for a normal 200lb male is usually 15x/bodyweight. Which is 3000.</p>
<p>The whole point of eating above maintenance (over 3000) is to spike Leptin. </p>
<p>Are you finding this concept hard to understand?</p>
<p>You missed the memo. Fat people don’t have LOW leptin. They have HIGH leptin. The obesity is caused by LEPTIN RESISTANCE in response to the very high leptin levels. The breakdown in the feedback loop is not the lack of leptin. It’s the sensitivity of the brain receptors to leptin levels shutting down.</p>
<p>Look, if you are a bodybuilder trying some kind of crazy “body recomposiition” bulk and cut scheme and you can’t stand the low carb diet without a cheat day every week, have the cheat day. If that’s what it takes to stay on your diet, fine. But, I just love hearing the body-builder bro-science internet nutrition gurus tie themselves in knots with this “refeed” stuff and then seeing the people who believe it practically trying to “time” their refeeds with a stopwatch. All the while wondering why their diets aren’t working.</p>
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<p>Really? When am I going to hit “the proverbial wall”?</p>
<p>I have outlined exactly why it is necessary. I have also posted studies that show the correlation.</p>
<p>And you just answered your own question.</p>
<p>Obese/overweight people have HIGH leptin levels. Until those levels are lower (Due to having less bodyfat or a long extended dieting cycle) you will NOT need to do a CHO over-feeding day.</p>
<p>Leptin levels are controlled via two basic pathways:</p>
<p>SR: Daily energy balance: Extended dieting will cause Leptin levels to drop</p>
<p>LR: Bodyfat stores: Loss of bodyfat via dieting will cause leptin levels to drop</p>
<p>You are not at the point were you need CHO over-feeding to bring leptin levels back up. But you eventually will be.</p>
<p>When will I need a carbohydrate overfeeding day? I haven’t had a day above 150 grams of carbs (with the possible exception of Thanksgiving dinner) in 16 months. Do you think I’ll need a refeed day sometime this month? Next month? In 2012?</p>
<p>When your fat loss stalls/slows down to a crawl, that’s when you know.</p>
<p>Only way you can know when that happens is by tracking your body composition regularly.</p>
<p>What normal people do when fat loss stalls is two fold:</p>
<ol>
<li> Decrease calories further</li>
<li> Increase cardio</li>
</ol>
<p>What they don’t realize is that both of those things will decrease leptin further and pretty much stop fat loss in its tracks.</p>
<p>I realize it’s a counter-intuitive thing to do while on a diet but the best thing to do when fat loss stalls is to eat over maintenance for 1 day using CHO over-feeding. That will get you through your fat loss stall by increasing Leptin.</p>
<p>Also, the leaner you get, the more problems you will have with Leptin.</p>
<p>jsanche, are you running one of those online shops selling “leptin supplements”? No offence, just curious. 
What is driving you relentless desire to post numerous abstracts from scientific papers (that you don’t seem to even attempt to read and interpret) and quotes from body-building websites?</p>
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<p>Well, I should be seeing those big Leptin problems any day now. :)</p>
<p>The closest I’ve come to a plateau in 16 months was back in February when I had hit my “wildest dreams” weight target and started putting some carbs back into my diet – like baked potato once a week and so forth. That was about the time I read “Why We Get Fat” and cut the carbs more consistently lower than at any point in my diet – no pizza or pasta once a week. My weight loss accelerated immediately.</p>
<p>jsanche, keep in mind that there are A LOT of grabage publications on leptin - it was considered the obesity panacea and a coveted target of many bio/pharma companies. The gold rush just did not pan out easily.</p>
<p>And since you have studied leptin in such details, what is your position on PYY and NPY? ;)</p>
<p>Oh, I used to be a college athlete back in the day. I started studying this sort of thing for fun because I found it interesting (I started about 10 years ago). I think most people with a scientific background who happen to be athletes, will generally tend to research nutrition/exercise physiology on their own as a way to improve their performance on the field (I payed soccer).</p>
<p>@Intereresteddad: “Weight loss” is irrelevant. By cutting carbs you also reduced muscle glycogen levels. Glycogen is a complex molecule formed by glucose, potassium and 4g of water. When people cut carbs and they <em>magically</em> lose weight…it’s mostly/if not all water weight from the loss of glycogen.</p>
<p>So my question to you is: How much of the “weight” that you have lost in the last 16 months is fat? It’s very important in the LR (diet-wise)that you check this.</p>
<p>@Bunsenburner: Oh, I know. There are lot of bunk internet articles about leptin/fat loss flying around the internet. After a while though, you tend to see who is being truthful and who is twisting the facts to suit his/her own needs. I also don’t take anything at face value. I back-check every reference they post. (I also fully expect others to ask me to do the same if I make an assertion)</p>
<p>My research into NPY is mostly related to caloric deficits and their size. When you run large daily deficits (Say 50% of your maintenance level calories), NPY levels in the brain increase dramatically causing increased levels of hunger. That’s one of the reasons it’s usually best to run smaller deficits (Say 15% or so), as NPY levels in the brain can stay relatively constant (And you therefore experience far less hunger)</p>
<p>Regarding PYY, I have heard of it, but I have never really looked at it in any real detail.
(I mostly look at Ghrelin and CCK in as far as that part of the dieting issue is concerned)</p>
<p>not interested in leptin although am concerned about relation to insulin resistance & medication.
[Drug-induced</a> weight gain](<a href=“http://www.biopsychiatry.com/weight-gain.htm]Drug-induced”>Drug-induced weight gain)
*I am *interested in how we define hunger & I saw this article today that touches on that.
[A</a> Taste Test for Hunger](<a href=“Opinion | A Taste Test for Hunger - The New York Times”>Opinion | A Taste Test for Hunger - The New York Times)</p>
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<p>I can’t give you a number for the full 16 months because I didn’t record my daily body fat for the first 5 months and 40 pounds. Frankly, my body fat at the time was so high that the actual number was irrelevant.</p>
<p>Over the past 12 months, using 30 day running averages to get a little more accurate body fat number, I have lost 50 pounds of weight, of which 40 pounds was fat.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure that the 90 pounds I’ve lost have been more than water weight from depleting my glycogen stores.</p>
<p>It sounds like you had high insulin/blood glucose levels to begin with then. (Fairly common occurrence in overweight people with a lot to lose) Which is why reducing carbs worked for you. And a 80/20 fat to LBM ratio is actually pretty good (Anything over 75/25 is IMHO ideal)</p>
<p>Some of you people are a real buzz kill. JS had me all excited about going on a carb binge and eating a huge plate of nachos in order to jump start some fat loss. Now you’re saying if it sounds too good to be true, it is?! Please say it ain’t so. :(</p>
<p>jsanche,
i think that there IS a danger that those who have a very high fat percentage and/or have a lot to lose ARE by definition storers/insulin resistant and possibly Type @ diabetic. What you work with is a different population, not likely to be in this serious situation. </p>
<p>True, hitting plateaux in weight loss is a big deal and needs to be handled well. So does maintenance (of both the weight/fat loss AND the better lifestyle and eating habits.)</p>
<p>For the truly obese, whose chemistry may be a bit different from an athlete trying to enhance his performance and lose a few pounds of fat, the CARB LOAD may not be such a great idea. It may be quite dangerous for someone who is actually Type 2 Diabetic. </p>
<p>The science you have shown is fascinating, but it may not be safe or effective for all. YMMV, caveat emptor!!</p>
<p>My dream is that we will be able to get a read-out of our full endocrine profile each day to see what is happening with our body! Dreamer that I am…</p>
<p>In most situations (5-25lbs of fat to lose),I would opt for a 4 week on diet/ 2 week off diet maintenance eating, dietary approach. Keep in mind that the more you have to lose, the longer it will take for you to stall.(As I outlined before) I think that in the LT, that kind of dietary structure has been shown to be the most successful.</p>
<p>The maintenance part of that dietary structure will also help with the adherence portion in the LT. (IMHO, re-educating your palate is by far the hardest thing to do in the LT diet wise as you have stated)</p>
<p>I believe that the overwhelming majority of fat people will see the most sustained fat loss by cutting carbohydrate consumption. Obesity is a disorder of excess fat storage and carbohydrate consumption is the most directly linked to fat storage and fat storage regulation. And, of course, cutting carbohydrate consumption almost guarantees a signficant calorie reduction.</p>
<p>Almost without exception, my daily intake over the 16 months has been:</p>
<p>1750 to 2000 calories</p>
<p>20% to 25% carbs
50% fat
20% to 25% protein</p>
<p>I’m eating lower carb now than I did for the first 12 months.</p>
<hr>
<p>I don’t think people see their fat loss slow because of leptin. I think it slows because:</p>
<p>a) maintenance calories decrease over time as you lose weight, so the caloric deficit decreases given a stable intake. I burn less fuel at 160 pounds than I did at 250 pounds.</p>
<p>b) Any given exercise program will become less effective through adaptation unless you consiciously ramp up the intensity to provide consistently high stimulus. I’ve been pretty good at increasing the intensity of my workouts to match my increasing fitness. Heart rate monitoring my workouts has let me adjust interval training as necessary to get 90%+ peak heart rates.</p>
<p>c) The less stored fat you have, the slower the scale will go down. There’s less to lose and the remaining fat is in places where the body tends to hang on to it. The “easy” fat is gone.</p>
<p>Of course, there’s always the issue of whether someone is really eating as few calories as they think they are. It’s easy to creep if you don’t track every day.</p>