“the Ivy League also requires rigorous academic standards first, as a prerequisite to letting an athlete”
Why couldn’t Ivy League admissions offices make decisions based only on the application itself - just as they do for the majority of non-connected students? If, in fact, all these designated as recruits student athletes and students whose parents donate a building or a few million dollars are really just as good as all the other students who are admitted, then just prove it by putting them into the same pile without identifying them as “special”. Maybe admissions officials could identify them anyway from other things (An essay that starts with “I’m so proud of my family’s building” or a teacher recommendation that mentions their parents), or maybe their names would be removed so that even if an admissions’ official suspected and wanted to give that rich donor’s kid a tip, he or she would not be sure he was giving that tip to the right student. (And any effort on the part of private high schools or parents to inform them would be grounds for rejection.)
If you believe those students would have been admitted without special consideration, then let them just go into the pile and you can be certain they will be admitted. Wouldn’t that solve everything?
The beauty of this conversation is the ability to agree on multiple positions to the same argument.
Admissions should be a meritocracy
There are hundreds of great schools, you don't "need" to go to a ridiculously selective school to succeed.
People with learning disabilities need more time to take the standardized tests
Standardized testing is about to go away because one day doesn't reflect the ability of students
Most of the Fortune 500 CEO's come from public colleges
Schools with better guidance counselors have an advantage
URM's have an advantage (Boy if only my father hadn't gone to college!)
and on...and on...and on.
Everyone is right, and everyone is wrong.
In the end, what’s missing (IMO) is the strength in the parents to accept the limitations of their kids, and have them understand that just because they didn’t get into X college, they can still be happy, healthy, successful adults. This is a parenting problem. Life’s not fair…never has been, never will be…until as a society we care more about each other and find happiness in the process, instead of assuming pre-determined results based on being part of a special group.
@ShanFerg3 But didn’t you claim before that all of the non-revenue athletes in the Ivy League had the same academic credentials as the rest of the student body? If that is true, then these athletes would have been admitted without the need for a guaranteed spot from a coach, and the quality of the sports teams would remain unchanged.
As I stated before, a recruited athlete in a non revenue sport to top tier schools should have the same academic stats as a general admit because the mission of the university should be based on academics not some hobby sport that has limited participation due to artificial barrier to entry created by money like equesterian, women volleyball water polo, skiing, crew and sailing.
Many of these small selective schools won’t establish sports like cricket, judo or tae kwon do, badminton, boxing, mma bc they know that white kids don’t do well in these sports. Sports and legacy programs along with shield of “holistic” review allows them to curry favors to donors and allows ad com to use their own perverted versions of merit based admissions.
To parents of student athletes. The vast majority of us know your children work hard and obviously have gifts. They are smart and dedicated. They are good kids and we wish them well in life.
But, arguing with others who disagree or just see their preference at schools as overdone need to be respected as well.
Can we please move on. We all understand the two views on the issue.
@observer12 the reason this couldn’t happen is because each team has a specified roster number needed to compete in the Ivy Leagues. So, those spots are designated to be filled by these student athletes.
@observer12 Because the teams wouldn’t be competitive. For team sports, coaches need to fill certain positions – one year they may need left handed pitchers, then the next year a first baseman. They can’t just go through the accepted students to see who played little league and start serious training in college. My son plays baseball at an Ivy, and he trained and played year round since middle school in order to develop the necessary skills.
@EyeVeee - I learned a lot from this thread ( I did not know many things that go on - call me naive)
and second, this issue keeps me out of shenanigans that goes on in Washington DC. I have not checked any political news lately. ( I think its a good thing )
To parents of student athletes. The vast majority of us know your children work hard and obviously have gifts. They are smart and dedicated. They are good kids and we wish them well in life.
But, arguing with others who disagree or just see their preference at schools as overdone need to be respected as well.
Can we please move on. We all understand the two views on the issue.
My kids had IEPs granted through a public school district. My oldest transitioned from a birth-to-3 plan to an IEP and all the people were very helpful.
My sister teaches 4th grade at a public school. About half of her students have IEPs, some wealthy families but mostly very poor families. Often the poor children have undocumented parents who do not speak English.
@privatebanker I don’t think anyone is talking about how hard working the kids are in this latest exchange. I commented on @mdphd92 belief that athletics at elite universities should exist on a club level. Are you asserting his opinion wasn’t worthy of debate?
Why should we get to decide what the mission of a private university is? There are plenty of excellent private schools where sports are a very minor element. But for many, college sports is part of the experience. Maybe the university wants to create a well rounded community with elite scientists, musicians, poets, historians and athletes all living, working and learning together. I see nothing wrong with that.
@ShanFerg3 To be clear, I actually said that athletics should exist at a “more informal” level, not a club level. Varsity athletics could still make sense, although many recruited athletes in the Ivy League, such as in equestrian and sailing, effectively do compete at a “club”-like level. And since there seem to be plenty of elite athletes around with sufficient academic qualifications, the level of sports would still be at a “varsity” level, whatever that means. I will tell you, though, that varsity in the Ivy League is often at a different level than, say, varsity in the Big 12.
Getting back to the topic - I’ve found that cheaters will always cheat. They prefer to take shortcuts and they are often very successful in getting what they want without doing the hard work, so it quickly becomes the go-to way of doing things. I’m guessing that further investigation into the lives of most of these parents would reveal a lot of nefarious behavior.
@mdphd92 The University deems these student athletes as a valuable inclusion into the student class and recognized the best of them have choices and have to offer special consideration to get them to commit to their school.
He’s asserting that I asked you all to move on. Not only are Olympic athletes/Club sports/sailing vs. football/the mission of a university/federal funding for unis/etc not germane to this thread, the conversation is going in circles.
“The class action is not claiming that the students who are suing should have been admitted. It is claiming that the students paid an application fee in return for a fair admissions procedure, but the admissions procedure they were given was unfair. The implication is that the students want their application fees refunded.”
That’s an extremely modest payout for something as big and expensive as a lawsuit. Wouldn’t the judge just tell the plaintiffs to each apply to Small Claims Court?
Oops, typo in post #2057-- proctors might NOT want a lot of other test takers in the room as there might be an increased risk of suspicion by someone .
IF a student has an IEP or 504 in place at their school and is utilizing the accommodations, there is a higher likelihood they will get their accommodation. If a student does not (and many private school students do not have these in place) then the school typically provides the request, the reason for the request, usually also a copy of the supporting documentation from testing/medical professionals, and may also include teacher observation forms. Its hard to believe that the school counselors are not at some level aware of, or complicit in what is going on.
If this scandal is happening at the undergraduate level I wonder about admission into graduate school programs. For example applying to med school is very expensive with no option of enrolling in a safety school. You’re either admitted or you go through a 2nd application cycle. Are some applicants getting an advantage over others? Obviously the applicant that comes from a family with connections and money will have more support in preparing for the MCAT and getting consulting advice for admissions.
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