@northwesty “Like increasing numbers of public schools, my kids’ school actually does free test prep”. – As well they should, if they want the kids to compete against private schools, which often start doing test prep starting in 8th and 9th grades. So by the time these private school kids take their tests, they’ve had YEARS of preparation.
There are simply no resources to provide such adult (non-parent) resources. The vast majority of US raised college applicants go to public schools with school counselors who have hundreds of students for whom they are responsible. It is just not realistic to expect that there would be a person with the time to go through every detail of every college application. And, that begs the question - how can anyone know with certainty that that ONE person is immune to bribes?
In truth, there is no way to stop folks from gaming the system. There CAN be fairly simple after-the-fact auditing that will reduce the incidence of these problems and some of the universities involved in this scandal have already announced these plans. They will follow-up on student/athletes to document which ones actually participate on the team, for example.
@17yeargap wrote:
Amen!
I don’t think these people involved deserve compassion or sympathy. I think the criminal justice system should do their job and there should be consequences. In the meantime, I don’t think people should be telling Olivia Jade to kill herself etc. That’s what has been happening and it’s pretty awful. If her family went on a shooting spree then it’s fine to tell them to kill themselves. There’s a difference here. That said, I think the parents should do some jail time.
Not sure who is “just mad they couldn’t get what they think they deserve” on this thread.
D1 applied to USC and other elites and was accepted to many of them. After visiting the school on one of the accepted students day, she decided USC wasn’t a good fit for her. She instead chose a well thought of public institution and has done very well there-wouldn’t change a thing in retrospect. She will be awarded her hard fought-for Ph.D this spring. We have no sour grapes, but we are just as appalled and disgusted by the cheating as anyone.
D2 is quite bright, but would not have been a candidate at any of the super elites. Didn’t occur to us to bribe her way in; we sent her to the school that made the most sense for her chosen major, her abilities, keeping in mind some health challenges, etc. All worked out just fine.
Frankly, even if I were of the mind to do something so dishonest, I am the paranoid type. I would think I’d jinx my D and something horrible would happen at school as a way of Karma working on us. Nope, best to send our kids where they have the best chance of thriving, all within the framework of honesty and appropriateness. I think imperfect but essentially honest parents are by far the majority, no matter their background and SES.
@ profdad2021 “They will follow-up on student/athletes to document which ones actually participate on the team, for example.” Well, that’s pretty easy to fudge too. A student can claim injury. A coach can have the student a benchwarmer, certainly a common fate for many a college athlete even admitted without cheating.
Also, it’s true that the vast majority of US raised college applicants go to public schools. In fact, I think the percentage of American high schoolers going to private schools is in the 3-4% range. Yet about half the kids in the HYPS schools graduated from private schools.
So what we have here is a highly problematic role played by sports in many universities – and the role played by privilege and money at most of the elite privates.
In other words, if you want radical change – sports and money – good luck with that. It’s part of the culture.
@profdad2021 I think most posters here agree with you that athletic recruiting is necessary. Athletics enhance the school experience and if they are going to field teams then recruiting is necessary.
It is a little ridiculous when parents of athletes deny that there was an advantage for their child and then repeatedly dismiss and accuse those who point it out as sour grapes. I have not seen a single post that indicates that athletes don’t work extremely hard or have to excel in many areas to compete for those spots set aside for them, but there have been posts that indicate that these athletes are superior to all others who are not recruited athletes. It is also ridiculous to have a parent of an Ivy recruited athlete who wrote how their child was more deserving of admissions because of their coached talent chide other posters about thinking their child is “so deserving” and special (#2387).
All valid ECs that are part of these competitive applications are at the exceptional, elite level. All ECs of these applicants who are in the 80% qualified for a spot at the highest ranked schools take passion, obscene amounts of time, dedication, and work. To imply that somehow excelling at a sport is superior to excelling in other areas to justify why they are offered an admit advantage over others is insulting. They are admitted over others because of the need to fill a team, which is the advantage that recruited athletes have when spots are held for coaches. This does not mean they were not exceptional, just that they had an advantage over other exceptional students. They were not chosen over other exceptional children because they were somehow more exceptional - they fit the spot that the school reserved for students with their talents and exceeded all others with that talent. There is no “sour grapes” to pointing that out and then questioning why the coaches would have so much power without oversight when they are conveying an admissions advantage. Especially when that admissions advantage is being provided for less popular sports that are not as accessible to the masses.
I wonder how many CC parents are off researching crew, sailing, and fencing for their younger children? If I had some time, I would open up a fencing academy in my hometown and start recruiting young girls. I can master this tip.
@Nrdsb4 Congratulations to your Ds. You should be very proud. But the excerpt to which you responded was in response to a specific, particularly bitter comment by another poster, and there have been plenty of other posters who seem to share that bitter sentiment.
The privilege debate is really interesting. And for what it’s worth I found working at Mickey D’s and KFC 30 hours a week kind of hard. Babysitting for a 4 month old and a 3 year old 40 hours a week all summer for a buck an hour while the mom got back in shape at the club was quite hard. Stuffing envelopes at my stepfather’s company 9 hours a day every school holiday was no day at the beach I never went to. “Why does he make you work here every second you have off school and endorse your paychecks to him when he hands them to you right in front of us?”
My home was an upper middle class nightmare. I wish my teachers at the USC feeder (public) high school had noticed my straight A’s plummeting to C’s. My weight blowing up. My clothes. My fellow classmates sure did. The teachers and administration were focused on the star academics, big name CA families, and the athletes. I did ok. White helps a lot. My poor immigrant husband of color has his own story. Smarts help a lot. He did ok.
We have given our only child “everything” by most standards. Well. No horse. Honestly- given her everything, the honest college consultant. Tried to protect her. I quit, stayed home. She begins college in the Fall. We worry sparing her 98% of our pain and shame has ill prepared her for college in the big city. She is good, hardworking (academically hardworking) person but pretty much a “precious little snowflake” I guess people say. She will be at a school with lots of them. I’m counting on that. Hoping they will look out for each other.
Struggle has its privileges. We tried to give her the life we wished we’d had but intended to teach her how to survive. Fingers crossed. Our parents definitely taught us how to survive and we are truly grateful. I wonder how the kids involved in the Singer scandal feel? I know our daughter would pretty much blame us. And that’s a problem.
The Loughlin/Gianulli family pretty much froze all of their social media accounts or disabled comments, so I don’t think they really are exposing themselves to much of the public outcry. Which is probably the smartest decision they have made with regard to the whole sordid affair.
And apart from that-you have to be a pretty pathetic person to tell someone to kill commit suicide. As far as being despicable goes, pot, meet kettle. The one thing the internet has done has exposed is just how mean human beings can be to each other.
FWIW - I don’t give a tinker’s s damn about perceived prestige and the ‘elite’ schools (as @Riversider can well attest to;-)) and my comments about how to handle fraudulent admission should hold true for EVERY college, Community Colleges, state schools, Ivy’s, even online and for profit schools. Of course all private schools CAN do what they want, I’m just stating what I think SHOULD be done.
@17yeargap gap says “@parentologist I dont even know where to start with your post. I will just say that I am the descendant of slaves (proven 1619 arrival, in fact), and I am also fourth generation college educated, sending my families fifth generation to college. My great grandfather had a doctorate, and we all have advanced degrees. My oldest daughter has an MFA, and my other kids (I have five), want to be lawyers, educators and a dentist. We are not an aberration, because most of the African American families we know have this kind of excellence. You probably need to get out more, and actually meet people of color, and stop watching so much TV.
I am done with this thread, because some people are just mad they couldn’t get what they think they deserve, want to blame others, and don’t care about the crimes committed. Happy decision days, to come, people.”
I say,…please don’t go @17yeargap. Your intelligence and grounded demeanor is needed to keep this thread balanced. I agree that comment regarding African Americans and Caribbeans was a lot. It’s evident some people just aren’t exposed.
We all see this from the perspective of our own experience.
@Hanna writes
I don’t mean to be snarky, Hanna, but I suspect you think that because you sang in an a capella group. And, your analogy is a bit unfair because you matched the most famous singing group with one of the least rah-rah college sports. (In recent years, the Whiffenpoofs refusal to go co-ed–they finally picked ONE female member recently–didn’t do a whole lot to bring the Yale community together.) Do the gazillion other singing groups at Yale do more for the Yale community than the golf team? I really don’t think so. And my favorite Yalie a/k/a my kid didn’t sing or play sports.
And because of the # of singing groups and how “cool” they are at Yale, LOTS of gifted singers apply to Yale. Yale doesn’t have to recruit baritones to ensure there will be one or more available to sing in the Whiffs. It’s not the same for sports.
There are also this thing called the Olympics. My kid became friends with someone a few years older at Yale and really could not figure out how this kid got into Yale. He seemed to be less intelligent than most people and he didn’t play on any athletic teams. He wasn’t a legacy. He was obviously from an affluent background, but not a “give a building” level of affluence. He was a nice, friendly guy, and he really worked hard in class, but he studied more to get worse grades than most people.
And then the Olympics came around...and my kid found out why this kid got in. Didn't win a medal but in the top 10 or so for his sport. And every time he competed in multiple events, Yale got the kind of publicity money can't buy. Ditto the leader of my kid's freshman pre-orientation outdoors group. She came ame in about 6th or so in her event...and that got a lot of coverage. (BTW, in that case while sailing may have helped to get her in, she might have gotten in without it. ) I'll wager a good amount that a lot of folks who watch the Olympics don't know what a Whiffenpoof is. And at least my Yalie kid was more excited about watching Yalies in the Olympics than listening to a Whiffenpoof concert.
One more point…a lot of folks here seem to think that while “low income” and "first generation’ overlap, there can’t be any overlap between “academic stars” and other categories.
The actress Natalie Portman graduated from Harvard. In addition to her acting, her admissions qualifications included being a semifinalist in the Intel competition. Jody Foster was already a famous actress when she went to Yale. She was also valedictorian of a very respected private school and fluent in a couple of languages. I’m sure being Jody Foster helped her get in, but she too might have gotten in for academics. I’m sure being the son of a Nobel Prize winner and a Yale legacy helped one of my kid’s college classmates get into Yale, but the kid himself was an absolute genius and graduated with a double major in math and economics, Phi Beta Kappa, summa cum laude, with highest distinction in one of his majors–an award that department gives out about once every 10 years, and as the winner of some special award from the National Institute of Health. Dante De Blasio was the son of the NYC mayor, biracial and thus a URM, and, with his partner, NY state champ in policy debate.
In other words, don’t think every celebrity or URM has no other qualifications.
@Nrdsb4 My d showed me Olivia Jade’s instagram. A few days ago she disabled the comments, but there were still pics that people could comment under. That’s where my daughter saw the most severe online bullying. Maybe they were smart enough to disable ALL comments now, but that wasn’t the case recently.
@bamamom2021 says :
“I wonder how many CC parents are off researching crew, sailing, and fencing for their younger children? If I had some time, I would open up a fencing academy in my hometown and start recruiting young girls. I can master this tip.”
Lol…and you feel this would accomplish what? There is no easy road to being the best at what you do. The fencing recruits are the very best in this country and internationally. I know numerous fencers who have been competing since as young as 8-9 but weren’t at the level to be recruited. But, if you have a genuine love and interest in the sport go for it.
Yeah, that’s why I basically said “I’m not sure who this is in response to,” since it didn’t quote that person. This thread is VERY HARD to keep up with, so remembering past posts is pretty difficult if they are not specifically quoted.
There are, and always have been, people who believe very strongly that students should only be admitted on “merit”-and often that means strictly by test scores and maybe grades. Anyone who gets into a school with anything less than the perfect grades or scores are viewed as “less qualified.” So you have this whole issue of what actually does make a student qualified or “deserving” that has always been debated here on CC. I’ve seen people refer to a student as “less qualified” based on nothing but a TEN POINT difference on the SAT, back when it was on a 2400 scale! Those are probably the people who want no consideration given to kids who have close (but not better) objective measurements, but who may bring something else to the table. If it’s not done by the numbers, it’s “not fair.”
I feel sorry for these kids. Imagine being outed to the whole world as a cheat and a fraud at the age of 17. Imagine being that age and having your parents telling the world that you aren’t very bright, and that they had so little faith in your abilities that they had to pay someone to take your tests for you, and/or bribe your way into schools.
I don’t think the kids should get to keep the ill-gotten gains, but they are kids and do I feel bad for them. Privilege isn’t always everything it is cracked up to be.
@jonri “
The actress Natalie Portman graduated from Harvard. In addition to her acting, her admissions qualifications included being a semifinalist in the Intel competition. Jody Foster was already a famous actress when she went to Yale. She was also valedictorian of a very respected private school and fluent in a couple of languages. I’m sure being Jody Foster helped her get in, but she too might have gotten in for academics. I’m sure being the son of a Nobel Prize winner and a Yale legacy helped one of my kid’s college classmates get into Yale, but the kid himself was an absolute genius and graduated with a double major in math and economics, Phi Beta Kappa, summa cum laude, with highest distinction in one of his majors–an award that department gives out about once every 10 years, and as the winner of some special award from the National Institute of Health. Dante De Blasio was the son of the NYC mayor, biracial and thus a URM, and, with his partner, NY state champ in policy debate.
In other words, don’t think every celebrity or URM has no other qualifications.”
Well said @jonri…great post
They may have been brought up with a cavalier attitude towards honesty. Olivia Jade revealed that her father accepted money from his parents that was intended to pay his tuition to USC, and used it instead to start his business. He didn’t, however, let them in on that, and in fact went to great lengths to lie and deceive them about it. Because his business took off in a big way, the family philosophy seems to have been that the means therefore justified the end. It would take a strong moral compass to reject lifelong exposure to this kind of philosophy. Not impossible, but just not probable that the kid would somehow come out of that morally unscathed. Of course, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t get a big dose of reality as 20 and 19 year olds that the whole world actually doesn’t operate that way. They are finally learning about consequences.
I think they will come out ok. They don’t need college anyway to have a very nice life indeed.
My kid had a high school classmate who was a fencer. He started a team at their high school. Initially, he was the coach. A lot of years later, at least 3 kids from that school–a NYC “admission by exam” school–have been recruited as fencers. At least 2 of them were from Asian immigrant families.
A neighbor of mine has her grandkid in fencing because the D of someone she knows was recruited for it. Ironically, this kid is white but lives in Harlem and started fencing in a free neighborhood program aimed at African-American kids.
Two Ivy grads started a program called “Street Squash” to train inner-city kids in squash. It focuses on NYC and Neward. It also provides academic and other support to the kids. It’s existed 20 years and the first wave of kids has already hit colleges. https://streetsquash.org/
So some of the 'preppy" sports are starting to look a bit less white.