I’m going to quibble with this just a bit, because it might lead some to believe that having a major challenge to overcome is a “hook.” I have heard people say, “X only got in because she suffered [name your tragedy].” I know this isn’t what you are saying. I know you stated that your daughter overcame these challenges. But I don’t want anyone to think that a LD is a hook, or a death is a hook or anything similar. Sometimes a challenge can be the catalyst that motivates someone to shine. But kids don’t NEED a tragedy or life challenge to do this. For example, we know one kid who devoted most of her high school years to working with kids with a certain rare disease. She did this out of true passion and love. She found ways to go above and beyond what most kids do in the regular course of community service. She didn’t need a life challenge to find a way to shine. No one does.
Again, I"m not saying that your post suggested this. I just hate when people complain that their kids could have gotten into Harvard if only they had suffered some awful fate. And yes, I have heard it.
@gallentjill
I never said or implied what you assume. A challenge, even several of them, are not “hooks.” Hooks is a term relevant to the special categories in the Early Round. Hooks are identities common to certain categories of students; they are not elements of an application.
A better read of my post would have elucidated the dynamics of evaluating an application – in that there is a context for high performance which the colleges also take into account when assessing exceptional drive in a student. That context can include extraordinary challenge. Challenge of one student does not devalue the elective accomplishment of a “competing” student with a history of generosity of commitment.
In the situation I described, the three challenges faced by my D were not duplicated among the other applicants to that university, in that round, from that school. They could not match her in outside accomplishment, even though some of them surpassed her in test scores. But in addition, she had acquired these recognitions against significant personal obstacles. It doesn’t mean that the girl you describe was less valuable to a different college in a different round from a different school.
I do agree with you, to some extent, regarding the Pity Party claims of others. Unfortunately, I have seen other examples which “prove” the myth – in which an emotionally susceptible AO says that he/she was persuaded by the mere pathos of an essay or situation. Since this particular D of mine loathes self-pity and never indulges in it, it could only have been a LOR that brought her disadvantages (not racial) to the attention of AO’s – or the conclusions that could be drawn from her application contents. I was obliged to read (not edit,which I did not) her personal essays, by her English teacher. The essay regarding one of her personal circumstances was raw and unflinching but completely lacking in self-pity or any kind of emotional manipulation. That’s what made it so powerful.
“This is the link for the admission liaison program. https://alumni.virginia.edu/admission The deans will meet with both OOS and IS legacies. An instate acquaintance met with them a few years ago.”
@sevmom – I’m sorry, but you are totally just throwing random incorrect info around.
The program you cite isn’t run by UVA admissions. As you can see fro the link, it is run by the UVA alumni association. It is a perq you get as a UVA alumni (in-state or out-of-state). They look at your kid’s stuff (in-state or OOS) and give you a very insightful opinion on how competitive your kid is. It was extremely helpful information into high end college admissions (at UVA but for other schools too).
Those folks (who are great – I’ve met with them myself) work for the alumni association. They 100% are not admissions deans at UVA. They submit zero information to the admissions dept. And the website you link says this:
“What influence does the Alumni Association have in the application process? The Alumni Liaison Program is simply preparatory and has no influence throughout the application process.”
Have your son call them up (since he’s a Hoo). Have him ask them if his kids will get a different break based on whether apply for in state or out of state legacy. Please report back what he hears.
Eye roll. Moving on.
PS – Sincere thanks to you and your fellow Commonwealth taxpayers. It is surprising and very generous that y’all have always made so many of the valuable seats at UVA to carpet baggers like me (and my kids). Go Hoos.
“I am conflicted about legacy preference for a public school.”
But (the whole point of this discussion after all) is that it only applies to the OOS pool. For that pool, UVA is operating mostly as, and competing with, other private schools. 20% admit rate; $65k COA. OOS only legacy tips is, frankly, a great way for UVA to fill those higher priced seats with well qualified kids. It really doesn’t impact the state/public admissions pool.
UNC operates and says the exact same thing as UVA fyi:
“For non-resident children of alumni, family ties to the University may be used in our final admission decision. There is no formal preference for resident applicants who are children or step-children of alumni. In the course of evaluating such an applicant, depending on the whole of the student’s circumstance, we may see this family connection as one part of the student’s larger story. But resident children of alumni tend to fare well in admission to Carolina because they’re generally well prepared to thrive in college.”
You are right about the alumni association. Well, UVA, as you know, has had a good number of OOS students for many, many years. That is not new, unlike some public schools that have more recently increased OOS percentages. And yes, Go Hoos and while I’m at it, Go Hokies, too!
The other day when I was racing through this thread to catch up, I misread a reference to “signing” athletes as “singing” athletes. I audibly groaned at the thought (in a work meeting no less) before realizing my mistake. On the other hand, maybe a soccer playing Whiffenpoof would bring a few CCers of opposing views on the topic closer together.
Now that some weak spots in the admissions process have been exposed, I can’t help thinking what other aspects of college are ripe for scandal. Getting a certain grade, or getting a grade raised are my guess as to what we will someday find out are possible for the right amount of $.
Extract:
I can’t know what discussions the Giannulli family may have had about Olivia Jade’s future, but honestly: How important is it for a person like her to attend a fancy university, other than to satisfy her elders?.. You sense, in some of the stories to emerge from these fraud charges, an odd form of intergenerational class conflict, in which wealthy people who did not grow up pampered (Loughlin is the child of a telephone-company foreman) are now trying to impose middle-class values (a good education is important) on superrich kids who see little use for them.
…More than faking their kids’ athletic or test-taking prowess, these parents have faked their own parenting. They did not wind up raising enviable, academically extraordinary children, but they’ve fudged the results so they can drop “U.S.C.” in conversations instead of “A.S.U.”
An American academic once stated that some American university majors exist for the purpose of giving As. The Sokol Hoax gave us a pretty good idea what those programs are. I really hope we are not going down that rabbit hole, but I have been told that we tend to follow the US, but with a twenty year delay.
@Plotinus- I have been saying this for over a decade here on CC. My simple approach to cutting through the “smoke and mirror” is to simply focus on the major and not the school. While I can probably get into an elite with enough wealth and or political clout, there is no way I can survive four years of physics, theoretical or otherwise.
So is it likely that spouses won’t be in jail at the same time but one first and then the other so that they can take care of family/business? Hasn’t that been done in high profile cases before?
My bet is no substantial prison time for Loughlin or Huffman. Maybe a few months at one of the pleasant places with tennis courts. A plea deal, fine, and community service. Theyll plead ignorance and naivete.
Looking at it coldly I have to agree with you that no one will receive a substantial prison time. As outrageous and morally reprehensible as all this is I doubt the maximum possible penalty for the crimes they were charged with (mail fraud/honest services and money laundering) can be too harsh especially when handled by good/expensive lawyers. That said, I think the biggest punishment here is the shaming itself which is maybe a bigger deal than a prison term. If these people were motivated enough to go to those extremes (not even talking about monetary amount but bribing and cheating like that…) just to avoid the shame of their children attending less-prestigious schools I cannot imagine how they must feel now that the whole thing exploded in their face like that. It would surprise me if, hypothetically, they were given the chance of serving prison time for another crime over this embarrassment alone they wouldn’t chose the former …
From the article “The lesser-known way wealthy students have an edge in college admissions”:
"At 12 out of 15 public universities examined by the researchers, who are based at the University of California Los Angeles and the University of Arizona, recruiters made more out-of-state visits than in-state visits in 2017. At seven of the public schools studied, recruiters visited out-of-state high schools more than twice as many times as in-state high schools.
“All of the universities studied were more likely to visit out-of-state public high schools in high-income areas than out-of-state high schools in low-income communities. The same was true for most of the universities’ in-state visits, though recruiters tilted more towards wealthy public high schools out-of-state than they did in-state.”
Generally, only wealthier families can afford expensive colleges with poor (or no) financial aid, which describes most out of state public schools (but is not limited to them, since private schools like NYU and BU are in this category, as are in state public schools in some states like Pennsylvania). No surprise that this is an advantage for them.
Many in state kids will visit the colleges. Some programs take low SES kids on a tour of a selection of more competitive colleges. Or there are fly-ins.
Try to separate the fixation du jour on wealthy advantages and look for more. The number of kids who’ll have an interest in a more selective, expensive private college is lower at some hs. And at times, one visit is open to kids from other hs. Etc.
Most interesting bill is the one to eliminate Cal Grants to universities that give special admissions treatment to legacies or the children of donors. I imagine the private colleges in California will fight this.