Apparently with enough money and with the right connection to certain doctors you can. Therein lies the problem.
@CTScoutmom - Disclosing accommodations would be a major deterrent for those who are using them illegitimately… That would be helpful for kids who legitimately need them. I have no scientific data to support this, but my hunch is that students who get the extra time but don’t truly need it would have a bigger percentage increase than those who need the time to level the playing field.
No, actually I’m not okay with testing companies violating students’ privacy in that way. Students aren’t required to disclose learning disorders. How does violating their rights stop the wealthy from abusing the system?
@LisaNCState -hyperbole does not help a conversation. Nor does advocating for recouping or reinitiating discriminatory practices.
Once again, wealth is a key factor in getting what you want.
So here’s an observation:
Despite Americans talking a good game about believing in meritocracy and being against corruption, our higher ed admission system is much less meritocratic and more corrupt than many other countries. But that’s not the amazing part. The amazing part to me is that so many Americans are fine with that. So people here just assume that the kids of ex-Presidents can go wherever they want. And are fine with that! In many countries that are more corrupt in many ways, that would not sit so well with people. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s much more difficult to cheat/bribe your way in to PKU in China or a grande ecole in France or Oxbridge in the UK, for instance.
In the Republic of China (Taiwan) when it was essentially run as a dictatorship, Jiang Jing-guo was pretty ruthless about torturing and killing dissentents. But he was unwilling to violate the sanctity of Taiwan’s uni entrance exam to get his kids in to the top colleges in Taiwan. When their scores weren’t good enough to get them in, they went somewhere else.
That suggests that people should not be too impressed by someone’s college name without any additional indication of actual superstar merit. I.e. the assumption is that most Harvard students/graduates are merely “average excellent” with special advantages and preferences, a minority are actual superstar merit, and some are cheaters.
@damon30 It’s not as simple as they can admit who they want. There is a case now, winding its way they the courts brought by Asian students who feel they were denied admission to Harvard.
@LisaNCState. I truly understand your frustration. But as someone stated if given extra time most people would do better. But kids that “need” the extra time it’s just like a normal test for them. There isn’t the advantage that your thinking there is. For someone that has no true LD problem and the parents pay to play yes, it’s a problem but for kids that truly need it there’s not.
Also like 40 % ceos on fortune 500 have adhd. It’s an asset not a negative. You are also equating a disability or slower a brain processing with lower intelligence for some reason and most likely is that you just don’t understand the medical condition and I wouldn’t expect you to either if you don’t have a child with this. My sons school as stated above was the number 1 school that is public but you have to test into. Their avg act is 31.3. He took 6APs and multivariate Calc 3 his senior year. He’s at Michigan for engineering. If he wasn’t allowed to go to this competitive school (in a good way), he would of been bored. One of his accommodations from middle school was not to point and ask him to answer a question first. Due to slower brain processing he just needed some time to formulate the answer. He “always” knew the correct answer and it frustrated him to no end that the same kids would immediately raise their hand and shout out the “wrong” answer. In his high school the principal laughed when I mentioned that he needs a few minutes to answer the questions. She said “all these high thinking math driven, high intellectual kids, need a few more minutes. It’s the way their brain is wired” and then explained to me that their teachers are instructed to ask the questions but wait a period of time for the answers. He flourished at this high school. In college his need for any accommodations is zero. He has them if needed but think he’s embarrassed to actually ask for them. He stated, “I just want to be treated like a normal student”.
@CU123: “Once again, wealth is a key factor in getting what you want.”
. . .regardless of fairness or legality.
Yes, and the striking thing to me is that Americans seem much more comfortable with that than many people from other countries, including ones with higher levels of corruption.
I feel so naive in this; just assuming how prosperous and wealthy families would take their kids’ educations while growing up more seriously. Why didn’t they work harder with their kids when they were younger to help with their studies, so they wouldn’t be in this position of cheating on tests in the first place? They certainly had the means . . .
Money seems to often negate or soften that drive . . .like “don’t worry about your schoolwork and studies, have fun. We’ve got college covered no matter what.” I guess money does not equate to intelligence.
@partyof5 you think the judges that disproportionately come from Ivy league undergrad schools are going to rock the boat? The other part of the story that is being missed is that the elite also want massive grade inflation schools with prestige. Having the majority of the school with donors kids, athletes, and lower test score kids yet 90% of Harvard graduating with “honors” means rampant grade inflation to make sure kids get into law and med schools.
@anon145 Given the way this country has been moving lately, I dare not make predictions. If the case makes it to the Supreme Court, who knows.
Just look here in these forums and see that the great majority of posters favor legacy preferences and other preferences for the already advantaged and privileged.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2128935-legacies-full-pay-and-donors-misguided-anger.html
Seems like the only special preference or hook that is commonly disliked here is the URM one, which correlates to disadvantage, unlike the others (although the most selective colleges still often load up on high SES privileged URMs).
@anon145, well, they still have to do well on the LSAT or MCAT.
For med school, also get recs and sometimes a committee letter. And graduating from med school is no joke.
Actually, at USC and a good chunk of the Pac-12, winning in revenue sports is important. And at USC at least they’ve been doing much better than the revenue sports. The most shocking thing was the involvement of a coach who has won 16 national championships.
And one thing drifting through these comments, is the thought that these kids with the inflated standardized test scores will now wash out academically at these “hard” colleges…but I’ll say…based on personal experience and also what i’ve observed here…these schools are very very difficult to get into…but I’d venture to say that any bright & motivated student would do well once he or she is in. The eliteness of the academics is more the gate to the entryway, if you will, than the regular day to day.
@partyof5 Yes, that and the UNC lawsuit. But I think the consensus view is that Harvard will win its case. The plaintiffs failed to show that Harvard discriminated against Asians as Asians. They were allowed to trot out many Asian students they did admit to testify how much Harvard loved them and the other Asian students on campus. I think the tricky part for Harvard was not to make their defense as crass as the way I put it, but rather to claim instead that there is some societal benefit that they be allowed to select students by their own special benevolent process.
I think I’m on board now, after this thread, with turning the ACT & SAT into untimed tests, if that’s the only way to make them fair. Because I am sure there are many undiagnosed middle and lower income kids who actually do need accommodation.
Another idea, let the elite colleges administer their own entrance exam. Want to apply to Yale? Take the Yale entrance exam, etc. They can use any criteria they want in that case.
Beyond the blatant cheating, lying, bribing and conniving of these parents to get their kids into these schools, I am as disgusted that they also got to use these bribes as charity tax right offs, scamming another system while scamming admissions. FOR SHAME on so many levels.