Thanks for the tip, EC. I will do that!
And I agree. It is so easy and not expensive (relatively) to have automatic doors. Even putting aside all the physical reasons why doors can be difficult, think of the germs on there! This is part of how sickness spreads so quickly.
I deal with issues like this in my work. I don’t know the exact law in your state, but this sounds extremely unusual. I am a lawyer for a retailer, and all of our stores (49 states) are accessible. In fact, all retailers face ridiculous shakedown letters from advocacy groups (mainly in CA, of course) where a law firm will find a “plaintiff” and have them roll down the street to different retailers and write up all the ways in which the store is deficient- paper towel rolls not the right height, door swings the wrong way, pitch on the parking lot tiny bit too much etc. Retailers are all over this stuff and while I am not doubting your report, I am very shocked. I am in retail industry meetings (legal) and this is just not something that is ignored.
As for the landlord- it depends on the lease. It very well might be the landlord’s responsibility. I’ve had it go both ways in the case of my company.
You might also think of contacting the Center for Independent Living in Berkeley: http://www.thecil.org/
I’'m sure they must have contacts in every state.
@momofwildchild I was shocked too. It was actually my mom who was the most outraged.
Just out of curiosity, do you know if there are requirements to have accessible doors at all entrances or if they only have to have one accessible door? We parked in the handicapped parking and rolled/walked into the doors that faced the handicapped spaces. There may have been electronic doors on other sides of the store but I couldn’t see them from where I was at in the parking lot.
All the main entrances into the mall (and not the store) seemed to be automatic.
Another poster on here who lives in my neck of the woods wasn’t surprised at all when I told her what mall it was.
@AboutTheSame thanks for the link!
Requirements can even vary by county, but I would suspect there only needs to be one door that is accessible, although it might be a percentage of total doors. They may get by because they open into the mall and the main mall doors are accessible???
That was my fear, MOWC- that they could just have one accessible door and call it good. The wheelchair did fit through the door space so at least they were compliant on that.
I wish that they would put something by the handicapped spots along the lines of “Just an FYI- these are handicapped spots but the ‘handicapped doors’ are down a ways. You might to know that before you park here.” (Of course, this is me bitterly joking.)
The other super easy thing that I’d want them to fix is to put a sign by the escalators (how 99% of the people get between the floors in this store) that says where the elevators are. Or elevator signs somewhere prominent in the store. They were nowhere to be found (and since it was Black Friday, neither was the staff to ask…)
Adding… I just read some of the reviews on their headquarters and apparently this is NOT the only store with major accessibility problems.
(For those who didn’t see my post on the venting thread, the store in question is JCPenney.)
You may want to notify the local fire department. We have to maintain certain aisle widths in order to comply with local safety ordinances.
The handicapped parking spaces are definitely controlled by the mall. Whoever developed the mall would have had to comply with the laws and regulations to have the plans, and if those spots are near an entrance to the mall as well as this individual store, it may have made sense to put the handicapped spots there. I can think of a lot of malls that have handicapped spots near the big anchor stores (Dillards, Macy, Nordstrom) but also near the main mall entrances. There are other smaller stores with outside access near these too, but those also have mall (inside) doors) . It is most likely that the individual stores control only their interior space (from the paint in). The access doors to the outside are probably what is known as ‘limited common area’ which is common area like hallways and sidewalks, but controlled only by that one tenant (in a condo building, limited common areas would be things like patios and driveways; the owner gets to control those spaces closest to the unit he owns, but legal ownership is with the association. In a condo I owned, the garage door was owned by the association even though it was attached to a garage door opener that I owned).
I think the store is compliant if there is handicapped access through the mall (inside), just like a school is compliant if only some of the doors have ramps. The US Capitol is compliant even though not everyone can walk up those beautiful steps and some have to use the ramp entrances and elevators.
I would follow up with the mall itself, and with the store. Most retail stores not only want to be in compliance with the law but want to make customers happy.
As an architect, I know the ADA rules most from the what I have to do side of the business. The ADA says that if you remodel a building you have to bring it up to the current ADA requirements as much as possible/practical. The rule of thumb is that if it would add more than 20% the the renovation costs you don’t have to do it. Interestingly, I’ve been required to put in handicap bathrooms in a yoga studio that was only accessible via stairs. I guess you carry up the person in the wheelchair, but then they can get around the studio… Some stores will do sneaky things like chop up their renovations into smaller projects so that they never trigger the costs of something they don’t want to do (like adding an elevator).
Stores are public places, so they do have to follow the rules. A 2007 renovation would likely have triggered something. Certainly making aisles wide enough with 5’ turn around circles is a minimal accommodation that should have been easily met. (Not knowing where the elevators are just sounds like incompetence.)
I’ve been really frustrated by my clients - I’ve drawn floor layouts and restaurant table layouts that met the ADA requirements, but then when I go in later - they’ve rearranged things so that they are no longer wheelchair accessible. It’s infuriating. I encourage you to complain loudly, because the only way these people will listen is if we all do.
I took an ADA class where we had to leave the classroom, take the elevator to the ground floor and return. One thing we all learned is that opening a door when you are in a wheelchair is not trivial and all those annoying rules about clear space around them are there for good reasons.
Edited to add: Not every exit has to be accessible, but there has to be access to everything you need in the store and there has to be an accessible route to fire exits that are safe for the handicap. So if they lead to a stair there has to be a place of refuge where you can stay till the firemen can come get you.
Local laws can be more stringent than the ADA, but the ADA is federal law - it’s the same in every state.
Good luck.
@mathmom wow that is so helpful. Thank you!
The fire hazard aspect to this is making me more angry than any mere inconvenience.
I will be fighting this. The more I’ve thought about it, the angrier I’ve become. I am loud, I am stubborn, and I have friends in the state government.
You go, girl! Romani, if anyone can get results, it’s you!!
I’m glad to see you’re taking this on.
Long ago, when I was a young mom pushing a stroller, I was thrilled that advocates for the disabled had pushed for the installation of curb cuts.
And then, about 15 years later, when I broke my leg and needed to use a wheelchair, walker, or crutches to get around for three months, I was even more thrilled at how many public places were fully accessible to me, thanks to the same advocates. (I did discover, though, that it was often impossible to actually buy anything. Some stores had the merchandise racks so close together that I couldn’t reach the merchandise if I was using the wheelchair, and others (including my local supermarket) had no way for a person using a walker or crutches to transport merchandise from the display to the cash register (the only permitted options were carrying it or putting it in a shopping cart, neither of which works when you’re using a walker or crutches; carrying it in a bag was strictly forbidden.) I did get to go to a glorious concert, though, at our spectacularly accessible local concert hall – Strathmore, for those of you in my area).
Many of us will have a mobility problem, permanent or temporary, at some point in our lives, and many of us also find ourselves pushing strollers. So please make a fuss – many fusses, if necessary. And we will all owe you one.
Thanks, all.
They’ll get a double whammy. My retired father has long been an activist (I grew up going to union meetings since he was a union president… can’t imagine why I caught the activist bug!) but lately has had a lot of time on his hands and nothing to really do. Plus, he’s WAY more obnoxious than me.
I am currently in a disability studies class with several other disability activists. I am going to bring this up to them tomorrow and see if any of them have ideas.
Here’s a thought. In the Bay Area, one TV station has a consumer advocate who deals with situations when companies are being uncooperative jerks.
http://abc7news.com/7onyourside/
Anything like that in your area? Bad publicity can be deadly for a store.
[P.S. I like the sound of your dad.]
Romani:
I’ve been following this thread with interest. On Thanksgiving Day, I had a similar experience at a major NYC Steakhouse. (Happy to mention the name if anyone cares.) I’m on crutches and non-weight bearing. The only entrance to this upscale restaurant was through a revolving door that I could not navigate. There was an unmarked regular heavy glass door adjacent to it that was locked. A family member had to go inside and track down an employee at the busy check-in desk to ask how I was supposed to get in. She then found keys to unlock the door which was so heavy it required two adults to keep it open for me.
Further annoyance resulted when our assigned table (reservations 8 weeks in advance) was upstairs with only elevator through the kitchen. We stood in the lobby as at least 5 other parties were seated - most downstairs, had to ask for one and then another manager, and had to refuse placement in a back room by ourselves until we were finally given a table on the ground level with the majority of the other diners. It was clearly discrimination.
It was a very bad and time-consuming start to what thankfully ended up being a delicious meal. The 3 desserts we were comped (roughly 5 % of the cost of the $$$ meal) did little to ameliorate my dissatisfaction. Head manager was understanding and finally got us a table, but why is this allowed to exist in the first place?
I don’t have the time to track down the rules and continue the investigation, but I support you doing whatever you can to put an end to these practices
As a lawyer on the business side of this, I want to say that most businesses do the best they can. In many cases the facilities are older, and it can take time to remedy things- especially when it involves structural changes. Of course it is important to accommodate guests with various impairments, but I can tell you that I deal with some absolutely ridiculous requests, too. I’m sorry so many of you have had bad experiences.
The big new thing is website accessibility, and it isn’t enough to have your website (retail, banking, tickets, whatever) be accessible to sight-impaired users (user provides the interface equipment). You have to do a dive down and even have the privacy notices accessible- as if anyone reads them whether or not they can see!
I just got a notice from an advocacy group in a southern state. These are not even legitimate customers, yet the notice claims all the harm the person suffered from not being able to enjoy all the aspects of the store. The people are sent in by plaintiff law firms to figure out what might be wrong. The counter height of the register area was an inch too tall, for one thing. Don’t get me started…
I know most do, MOWC. Which is part of why I was caught so off guard. And places like my U where there were issues took very swift action to correct the issue. (Their buttons to open the doors didn’t work when the doors were locked after hours, even with my key card. The issue was fixed within about 72 hours and they were extremely apologetic.)
I actually want to give a particular shout out to Best Buy. Their aisles and checkout places were AWESOME! There was a lowered desk that was right at wheelchair height for us to do all of our transfer stuff (we were transferring a cell line) and check out.
But this place was just unsafe. The rest of the mall was perfectly fine (though I didn’t go to the other big department store at the other end of the mall). And actually the doubly frustrating thing is that JCP is one of the companies that is incorporating persons with disabilities into their ads and are trying to cater to them. It’s one of the reasons that I hope they’ll jump at the chance to correct this.
Like I said earlier, I would never be mad at a small shop or something because I know they do what they can. But a big dept store in a modern mall? 
I’m working on a project now to make our project data accessible to persons with visual disabilities. It is way, WAY harder than I thought it would be… and I’m partnered with a former supervisor of mine who is blind and works specifically with accessible technology.
AboutTheSame… actually I think we do. It’s been a while since I’ve watched the local news but I’m pretty sure we have something similar.
MAB I’m sorry that happened
Just an update- after talking with some people, I have decided to reach out to lawyers to see what, if any, options I have. I just received a very detailed response from a friend-of-a-friend who used to work in the ADA department of the DOJ. He said I basically have two options: file a lawsuit or reach out to the DOJ using this: https://www.ada.gov/t3compfm.htm
I am waiting to hear from one more family friend who primarily works in auto law but takes on ADA cases occasionally. (He was paralyzed from the waist down as a teenager after being struck by a car… so wheelchair accessibility cases are kind of a pet project for him.)
I have zero interest in gaining financially from this. I don’t want to go through any kind of lawsuit. But I recognize that I have an enormous amount of privilege that many of my friends in the disability community do not have. It has kind of come down to: if I don’t do something about it, who will?