FinAid Applicants: Have you been warned away from Early Decision?

Paying for College
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<p>If a kid really has a school heads and shoulder over all of the others that he prefers, and you, the paents are willing and able to take the risks if the aid package isn’t quite what you want, go for it. For a school like Duke, some of the more severe pitfalls are not there, and you are an informed parent.</p>

<p>Be aware that just because the chances are a bit better in most series for ED, that getting into a school like Duke is still a chancey propostion. I strongly suggest that all of the other applications get completely set to go because if it’s a no go, I’ve seen kids do go into a spiral of depression and the having to fill out other apps especially during a holiday season and with friends and classmates celebrating their acceptances, it can be a tough go. At least if those apps are set to go, all that has to be done is to mail them, and the kid can focus on feeling sorry for himself yet keeping the grades and other stuff going. Yes, i have seen ED denials send some kids into a tailspin that brought down grades and jeopardized other applications too.</p>

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<p>Well said.</p>

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<p>Yes… I do agree… I am having enough trouble having him finish his Duke stuff… I would love to have him do the others, and I may be able to get him to do the ones that don’t require him to put his heart and soul into a supplement for a school he doesn’t really want to attend… We even got one school offering us a free application, so there wouldn’t even be a $75 fee to do that one early. That is Case Western, and he has no desire to go there and for years has wondered why kids apply to schools they have no intention of attending (his cousin, for example). But I’ve been trying to promote that school as a good one for engineering AND merit aid. I think you guys have convinced me to get him to at least get the apps for other schools ready. </p>

<p>@Crimsonstained - yes! It was your feelings toward NU. Those are the exact type of feelings my son has for Duke, like its location in the south, its opportunities for tennis, its excellent Mock Trial team, (these are besides the academics!) and it’s a do-able drive for us (don’t HAVE to fly) and the colors are great! (well, perhaps that is MY preference!) Everything I print from them prints in blue ink! I love it!! Almost every other school we’ve seen has red as its main color, which I could tolerate as well :wink: Except Lehigh… my high school AND college main color was brown, so I’m not so keen on that one! :)</p>

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<p>You, know, you can fall in love with a car being offered for raffle. Free to to the winning entrant. Market value–more than a house. And you can dream how much you want it and what a great time you’ll have driving it. The raffle might not just be your pull out the ticket one, but requires a story and some accomplishment. Real nice to spend the time on that entry, but I think anyone would know what the chances of winning that are.</p>

<p>In the meantime, if you are going to need wheels, you had better look in to other options More affordable, predictable ones. So, yes, it’s all well and good to dream about something, but one has to also cover the other contingencies. You do know what the chances are of getting into Duke. So you do know that those other apps are very important as well as keeping up the grades. Not a school I know is going to consider depression over being denied ED as a reasonable excuse for doing poorly senior year.</p>

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<p>Perhaps I am confused… are you saying that the chances of getting into Duke are as good as winning a raffle? Wait, no I see that you are saying it’s not like a “just pull a ticket” raffle… I have studied the stats of early decision admission to Duke, as well as to Pratt, and I don’t think I would quite rate them on par with a raffle. I am well aware that kids with stats, etc., as my son’s don’t always get into top schools. I hear that all the time, especially receiving 2400 on SAT’s does not guarantee admission anywhere (his are not quite THAT high!), but I do feel he is a very good candidate. But I will still work on him to have that back up set of wheels ready to go if/when the time comes! :)</p>

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<p>I’m saying that falling in love with Duke is risky. It is one of the most selective schools in the country. When you start looking at schools with an accept rate of around 20%, it starts getting really dicey. Duke’s accept rate is about 15%. In there are the Carolina quota–if you live in the Carolinas, which maybe you do, that’s a whole other story, the recruited athletes, development, alums, and those with hooks. It’s a tough go. I think it’s perfectly fine for kids to dream and hope and apply to whatever schools that interest them. In your situation, I believe I said that ED seems to be reasonable as you are an informed parent, and you have other schools as well. I’m saying that, yes, Duke is a lottery ticket school and it can really hurt when a kid invests a lot of emotion in such schools to the point that s/he actually has it in mind that that’s where s/he is meant to go. I’ve seen a lot of crashes of great kids that way, as some of them have never been turned down from much of anything as they are top students, wonderfully talented and well regarded, and so told my everyone. It hurts when that happens. Hurts us parents too as we share a nerve with our kids–they hurt, we do too. So, keep the focus off the school that is already getting so much of it, and try to keep the other schools in the picture. I hate it when a school that should have been a likely school is called a safety school and in the kid’s mind is the loser school because it was always just the back up school. It’s so much tougher in that regard for so many more kids now. When I applied to college, it was expected that I would go to a local choice where my dad got free tuition for me since he worked for the program. Everything else was a lottery ticket, so the expectations were not as steep and if it didn’t happen, it didn’t feel like a failure. Now some of these top kids really get to feeling that way when they do not get into the most selective schools.</p>

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<p>spunk61 you may not need the three days… a visit is often a part of the audition day. </p>

<p>If all of the schools are that far away from home, is she looking any of her instate public options?</p>

<p>For Music Ed you D will likely want to look at in-state public options… they will be less expensive than privates or OOS publics… generally speaking it is best to study music ed in the state you wish to teach when you graduate because of the teacher certification piece, but many states do have reciprocity for certification.</p>

<p>Talent merit is VERY competitive for Music School admissions. If she is looking for merit, she may want to look for schools that offer academic merit for her stats, and offer music education. </p>

<p>Have you run the NPC on the websites for the schools in which she is currently interested? Do any of them promise to meet full financial need?</p>

<p>If you have not already done so, you may want to check out the music majors forum for detailed advice. :)</p>

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<p>Exactly. </p>

<p>Schools that are that selective - it’s not an issue of taking the “best” 3,000 applications out of the 30,000 that they receive. There is no measureable difference between the 2,999th best applicant and the 3,001st best applicant.</p>

<p>It becomes a crap shoot.
I think a lot of parents and students don’t realize that.
And it’s not personal and it doesn’t mean the student is a bad person or is not “qualified” if they don’t get in.</p>

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<p>There was a book written by a former Duke admissions employee, and it goes into a lot of detail as to how Duke selects its students. She coined the phrase “BWRKs” for many kids applying their, Bright Well Rounded Kids, a description that generally put them in the reject pile.</p>

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<p>CPT- That actually makes me feel slightly better about applying to a top school, if they’re anything like Duke. I’m not involved in a ton of things like a lot of people applying are, I just did a few things passionately and for a long time.</p>

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<p>As long as a student has some schools that are affordable and will definitely take him/her, I don’t see any problem in buying some “lottery tickets”. And ED is fine too, as long as the parents and students understand the drawbacks. I truly believe that a family who is financially in trouble and in a situation where it is important to get the best college aid package possible is cornering themselves in doing ED. Not so easy to say “no” when your beloved kid has heart and soul invested in that school and is giving you the puppy dog eyes, but you know that the package is going to be a stretch and is probably not a wise thing to do. A lot of emotion here and it’s not easy to black/white with the decision. </p>

<p>Also, in terms of MY3gr, I did not look at his son’s profile closely, and seeing that he is an engineering major, his chances are higher than the usual arts and sciences pool. They look more at select criteria and his son seems to have nailed those pretty well. But in the Trinity College part of Duke, I’ve seen kids from the NY tristate areea turned down.</p>

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<p>In fact, that’s what all admissions officials say they want … quality, not quanity.</p>

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<p>my3gr8boyz, since the parent(s) have to “sign” the ED agreement before the app is submitted, you’ve got the upper hand as far as setting conditions for your signing. We didn’t sign D1’s ED app until (among other things) we knew that her RD apps were in good enough shape that she would be able to have them ready for submission prior to ED decision date. Her apps to our state system (UC) were already submitted, along with another app to another OOS public, so there were certainly fallbacks. And as an NMSF, there are fallback-fallbacks, as well–maybe not first choice, but if come April 1 there’s no good news anywhere an NMF can still find places to go.</p>

<p>As far as if ED is a good deal, especially given the options for NMFs, I can entirely sympathize. :slight_smile: It all works out fine one way or the other, because we as humans have the amazing ability to rationalize whatever decisions we make. :wink: If your kid gets into the ED school, you’ll be convinced that the money you’re paying is worth it because of all the wonderful things he’s doing at school. If, on the other hand, he ends up going somewhere less expensive, you’ll be convinced that he’s doing great stuff at a far more affordable price.</p>

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<p>Slithey, Thanks!! Love it! I like your term “fallback-fallbacks”:slight_smile: He does have one safety that gives essentially half tuition for NMF (although we could’ve gotten most of that in aid…) and their RD date is actually Feb 2. He’s not thrilled with the school, but it is starting to sink in that he HAS to have other schools he would be willing to attend. :)</p>

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<p>My “fallback-fallback” is Bama, because of they’re guaranteed merit scholarships for certain stats, plus full tuition for semifinalists, etc. It’d enjoy it there, not as much as my top schools, but I’d still like it.</p>

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<p>Exactly. I have had Bama in mind for my son since even before he took the PSAT! Maybe you two will end up there together!! :)</p>

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<p>I like Bama enough for it to be a safety, but hopefully I’ll get in and get enough for NU, or get enough for Furman (I’ll get in, most likely). If I do end up there I’ll be searching for fellow nerds here and hopefully be in Honors. I’m okay with preps and jocks and such (my school is packed full of them) but I need a daily dose of people who have an IQ of more than 100 haha.</p>

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<p>DS has as his first choice school a reach school that guarantees meeting EFC ONLY for ED students. We visited and he liked the school a lot. They will simulate your financial aid application in a year before the one you actually apply by letting you see the package you would have gotten if you were in the current application year. They gave back separate numbers for us, and RD was $8k less grants a year than ED with the rest identical. I called the financial aid office for clarification and they said that a student accepted ED would be treated that way all 4 years. So ED is worth $32k+ more aid than RD.</p>

<p>DS has 5 other “reach” schools on his list including NU with a hook that all will meet EFC for all students (ignore safeties for this discussion). Our belief is that if he can only go to the above first choice if he gets ED, because adding $32k+ to the cost is going to make the tuition unreasonable. So if he gets it, we are done. If not, he applies to the other “reach” schools and a couple of safeties.</p>

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<p>None of the schools are going to meet your EFC (that is for you to figure out how to pay). Schools will meet demonstrated need (some will meet 100% demonstrated need). If your EFC is 32K, that is minimally what the school is expecting you/your family to pay</p>

<p>Cost of attendance -EFC + demonstrated need.</p>

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<p>First of all, unless all of these schools are using FAFSA only, they are highly unlikely to be meeting EFC. The term EFC (Expected Family Contribution) is a number generated by FAFSA for eligibility for federal (and some state) programs like PELL. It could have absolutely nothing to do with what a college considers what your contributions should be. That expected contribution varies from school to school because each school has its own formula and definiton. Also how each school chooses to meet the need that they come up with is at their own discretion.</p>

<p>I do not believe for one minute that every single RD student accepted at this college gets a package that much less than what he would have gotten as an ED applicant. There are some RD students that the school so wants that they will get very generous financial aid packages, maybe even more than ED students and what would have been offered ED for them. There is a lot of discretion and judgement involved in putting together these packages, and those doing so are pretty danged savvy, especially at those schools that do not guarantee to meet full need and may be need blind and practice aggressive enrollment management.</p>

<p>I believe that the formula the school uses, in general, are such to make sure that the ED students get full need met. It’s not to anyone’s best interest not to offer a doable financial aid package to the ED group, so I have no doubt that the ED group will get a better . AS A WHOLE than the RD group, who are on average NOT going to get full need met because the school does not meet 100% of need.
But what any given student will get at RD, no one knows until it happens. Also, if this school is the one I am thinking it is, the one Daddio’s son is contemplating, it is well known to be up front with negotiating aid packages. You show them what NW or Harvard or MIT is offering, and they are likely to play ball. They INIVITE comparative bids. And all ED applicants lose that privilege.</p>

<p>Sybbie, Katwkittens, and some other members have gone through the app processes with their kids and have seen top rated school,Known to be the most generous in aid, guaranteeing to meet full need, vary widely in their packages. Some require a student contribution, integrate Pell and Staffords, have loans, hold a student contribution for 3 years , treat outside awards as part of the package, include varying amounts for home equity, include your 401 K money as assets, want the values of your cars, take account of sibling eduational costs differently from others. </p>

<p>However, looking for the best financial deal is the only thing in this equation. It’s just that the parent needs to be aware of what is being given up. Personally, if one of my kids was hot on a school and we could make it work, I wouldn’t be that concerned that there might be a better deal on another school. But then I can afford to be that way. If we were a PELL eligibile family an extra $5 K over costs might make a big difference in our financial situation and maybe I wouldn’t feel that way.</p>