<p>Zimmerman is properly on trial here. Its just not clear to me that the charge is the most appropriate.</p>
<p>wegotin–that is not the way FL law has been explained. You can engage and later still claim self-defense.</p>
<p>One of those news articles said that one of the investigators recommended charging him with manslaughter but he was ignored.</p>
<p>the explanation, poetgrl, is that slowly the impression grows that TM was heavily influenced by race rather than GZ, as some first thought. Then with that impression, some may feel it more possible that TM may have come back to GZ after initially getting away. In that scenario, it is possible TM actually did attack GZ.
Now, whether you buy that explanation or not is another story. But that at least, explains what some see as a connection.</p>
<p>wegotin–here’s the Florida website. Where is the waiver of self defense?</p>
<p><a href=“Licensing / Divisions & Offices / Home - Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services”>Licensing / Divisions & Offices / Home - Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services;
<p>As I recall, GZ was handcuffed at the scene, was interrogated for 5 hours at the station and took a voice stress analysis test on what happened. He had visible injuries to his nose and head. </p>
<p>BCEagle91–it is interesting that GZ was charged with 2nd degree murder. Possibly once they decided to prosecute at all after the public outcry, they thought that if they charged that high they could avoid criticism, but it may back-fire.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[George</a> Zimmerman trial: Neighbor testifies Trayvon Martin was straddling Zimmerman moments before fatal gunshot - Crimesider - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591520-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-neighbor-testifies-trayvon-martin-was-straddling-zimmerman-moments-before-fatal-gunshot/]George”>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591520-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-neighbor-testifies-trayvon-martin-was-straddling-zimmerman-moments-before-fatal-gunshot/)</p>
<p>It seems that the defense could call the investigators to the stand to ask them why they recommended charging with ms instead of 2nd degree. Or call the prosecutors that originally decided not to try the case as to why. I don’t know if the defense can do this though.</p>
<p>So does the neighbor’s (Good) testimony constitute reasonable doubt on the prosecution’s contention that it wasn’t self-defense. You have one neighbor that says that Z was on top and the other saying that M was on top raining down blows (though witness didn’t see if any connected).</p>
<p>to dadx-
I think everyone agrees there was an altercation. The verdict does not depend on whether there was an altercation.(re post492)
(other than Sally, that has speculated the police may have beat up GZ to give him a good defense)</p>
<p>
“Racial comments?” Calling him a creepy ass cracker and a n#&^%?</p>
<p>I have two sons, now in their 20’s. White boys - I mean, blond, blue eyed, uber white boys from the suburbs. When they were Trayvon’s age, they talked like that with their friends (of various racial backgrounds) when they didn’t think any adults were around. Does that mean that “race was a significant issue” to them or that they “viewed the world through race” or simply that that was the was teenagers spoke among themselves?</p>
<p>Maybe all your kids are choirboys, or maybe my kids were actually seething with racial tension (hard to credit, given the way they turned out, and their multi-racial friends) but from where I sit TM’s language when talking to a friend on the phone signifies nothing other than that he was referring to a suspicious stranger following him, using language which is customary among his peers. Period. Reading more into it seems to cast more light on the interpreters than the speaker.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think Good’s testimony was devastating to the prosecution. He said TM was on top. </p>
<p>Add that one witness said it looked like Z had been gotten his butt beat. Add the pictures of Z’s nose which clearly shows TM punched the daylights out of him. Add the picture of the injuries to the head which suggest Z’s head was hit against the concrete as he claim. I am beginning to wonder if the prosecution is expects to lose. There is a lot of reasonable doubt so far, but it’s not over. The defense lawyers are very talented.</p>
<p>Getting in a fight that was initiated by your own actions does not provide a legal defense to murder, even if you were losing. Since GZ was following TM, he’s got a hard sell to explain that he was not the one initiating the conflict. That’s why he has to claim that he was in fear of being killed, which he has been pushing with his various out of court statements. Problem is, he really wasn’t beaten up that bad, and there’s no evidence on TM to contradict GZ’s lack of serious injury.</p>
<p>“other than Sally, that has speculated the police may have beat up GZ to give him a good defense”</p>
<p>You Go Girl! I like your possible explanation even better than mine … that after shooting TM straight in the heart, GZ thought “Oh Crap, unless I bloody myself up some the police might charge me.”</p>
<p>"the other saying that M was on top raining down blows "</p>
<p>Must have been a pretty light rain, given that there wasn’t even a scuff on TM’s knuckles. Perhaps TM was slapping GZ silly?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree with that point. I don’t think I expressed my point very well earlier.</p>
<p>If your white kids are referring to their black friends as the N word, you have a problem.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Following someone is not initiating a physical conflict. Simply because someone is following you it does not mean you can punch them in the face. When TM punched ZM that could certainly be called initiating a physical conflict.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I don’t believe that this information was introduced into evidence. Do you have information to the contrary?</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Is this his legal requirement or is it more accurate to say that the prosecution has to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Z initiated the conflict?</p>
<p>I have not seen any photos of TM but did TM have a swollen nose,cuts,bruises or any other injuries that would been a result of being punched or hit other than the gun shot wound? If TM has no other injuries then that to me would mean that TM was beating up GZ and perhaps GZ did use self defense.</p>
<p>“Simply because someone is following you it does not mean you can punch them in the face.”</p>
<p>Other than the broken nose, is there any physical evidence that GZ was punched? Given the “raining down blows” testimony, I guess the only explanation is that GZ had skin simultaneously tough enough to not bruise yet soft enough to not damage TM’s hands. (An alternate explanation I suppose is that all of TM’s blows were “raining down” on GZ’s nose. Peculiar way to fight … but whatever.)</p>
<p>Police offer says he observed that back of Zimmerman’s jacket was wetter than the front and had grass on it.</p>
<p>“I don’t believe that this information was introduced into evidence.”</p>
<p>It’s in the Autopsy Report on page 7:
<a href=“http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf[/url]”>http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf</a></p>