@OHMomof2 Cornell doesn’t give what? My daughter got work study. Her student contribution was around 3500 dollars plus she had work study.
Full rides @lisaol
A full ride at a world class college and you want more? Consider you win a birth lottery. Kids in many other countries simply do not have this kind of opportunity.
There are lots of people - me for one - who would have a hard time considering being born a poor URM a “birth lottery” of any kind, regardless of what happened 18 years in. And remember they didn’t get in just because of that, but they managed to excel despite the handicaps.
Not all of us are savvy or even try to be.
A long time ago, I was a first-generation college student. I wasn’t particularly poor, but I was the first person in my family to go to college, and it was a highly selective college, dominated by upper-middle-class kids with educated, sophisticated parents. I was working class to the core and completely unable to relate to the majority of the students at my university. My first roommate (the daughter of the provost of another university!) seemed like a member of a different species – and she felt the same way about me. (We managed to live together for only two months – most of which I spent hanging out in libraries to avoid her and her friends.)
Did I “pick up the vibe and mesh with more affluent peers”? No. Instead, I found my tribe – other kids who were either first-generation or from families with limited incomes (the two groups seemed to have much in common). There weren’t a huge number of us on campus, but there were enough so that it was possible to make friends. We got along great. We understood each other. We all had approximately the same opportunities and limitations in our lives. None of us felt left out or deprived during college. But none of us ever learned to mesh with the upper-middle-class majority culture of our university, either. If one of the goals of college was to assimilate into that culture, we failed to reach that goal.
I suspect this is a common experience.
Marian, I had the opposite experience. I bonded with a number of kids freshman year (still some of my closest friends) whose lives could not have been more different than mine. I was so dumb that when one kid asked another what her older brother was going to do once he graduated from college (he was a senior at another college but had visited) and she said “banking” I thought to myself- oh wow, that’s sad, a guy graduates from a great school and the best he can do is get a job at a bank? (becoming a bank teller was a respectable job in my home town for kids who were not college material).
I was clueless but my dormmates were interesting and kind and we became friends and I visited their homes and they visited mine. I didn’t think of it as meshing- we were friends. I had never met anyone who had been to boarding school; some of them thought it was cool that my parents wanted me around during HS. I had never met anyone with a famous parent (and there were a number of them) and they had never met anyone who ate dinner together, virtually every night- two parents plus kids. Who knew that famous people were busy every evening?
I had other “tribes”- I was a Classics major, and we were a tight bunch. I had EC’s and they were a tight bunch. But I never limited myself to being friends with the other “scholarship students”- although I was certainly friends with some- because at age 18 I didn’t define my world in economic terms.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, @blossom.
If I had to do it over again, I would try to do it your way. But at the time, I didn’t even realize that I was segregating myself socioeconomically. I just became friends with people I liked. It wasn’t until years later that I recognized what it was that we had in common. We were from different ethnic and religious backgrounds and different geographic locations, and we had different interests and career ambitions, but we were all among the less affluent students at our college.
Blossom and Marian, this is was my experience (& caveat: I haven’t read through this entire thread).
When I got to college, and first heard a reference to Martha’s Vineyard, for some time I thought it was an actual vineyard (had no idea it was an island off of Cape Cod - or a very pricey place). I didn’t know people actually went to boarding school and that they weren’t like detention centers for “wayward youth.” I thought “boat shoes” were rubber boots you’d wear if you worked as a fisherman, had no idea what language you were speaking if you referenced “MOMA” or “The Met” or “The MFA.” I couldn’t tell you if Tolstoy was a writer or a movie star, or what exactly a “condo” was (an apartment?) or cufflinks, for that matter. I didn’t know what an investment banker or a consultant was or did, or what in the world someone meant if they said their “father worked in finance.” I quickly, quickly learned there were so many things I had absolutely no concept of - that I couldn’t quickly read-up on in a textbook, things I just didn’t even know I didn’t know - and I had to be, or learn to be, okay with that. I had the “wrong” clothes and a twinge of the “wrong” accent and it was okay.
Like you, I found my people. I found my place. My first year roommate, who was “from Westchester” (which I had no concept of and thought was an actual city named Westchester - ha ha), and I traveled in entirely different social circles. We didn’t become friends, but we got along just fine for the year - no major problems. I loved my classes, even though cultural references sometimes flew over my head. I loved the libraries, joined some activities, worked a variety of campus jobs where I felt well-treated, made many friends. In all, my experience was entirely good and life-altering.
I ate all my meals in the dining halls on campus (included in board fees) and going out to eat was considered a treat. I had classmates who spent much more time and money doing that and I didn’t begrudge them (mostly) - I just figured that’s part of life, just as how I was fortunate to have parents who worked hard and were able to pay the electric bill each month. I didn’t expect the college to pay for off-campus burgers.
Is having these experiences - learning about the Vineyard and finance and MOMA and such - not better to do in college than it would be later on in life, or is it being suggested that low income kids would be better off never being exposed to these things?
At least when it happens in college you are all on fairly equal footing with regard to living quarters and meals and classes and social life. Obviously this is so at some campuses more than others but the residential ones where everyone lives and eats and studies together?
I went to an elite LAC as a low income (but highly educated family) kid who’d been a scholarship student at a private NYC day school for all of high school. I learned all the rich-kid stuff in HS so it wasn’t anything new in college.
My D is a relatively low income kid who grew up in a fairly wealthy area, I sacrificed a fair bit to make that happen. She’s now at an elite LAC and has friends that range from very poor to very wealthy to in-between, this economic segregation Marian speaks of isn’t happening for her, at all. Her world has expanded greatly this year, in a very positive way.
@Tperry1982 “I guess when they start work, they will want the same lifestyle as the senior managers - oh wait, you don’t make that much money yet. So when they come back talking about their golf dates and vacations, are they going to feel bad then too?”
So perfect.
The question I have, then , is why, if low income, is there such a draw toward “elite” LAC’s, private day schools, etc.? And who should pay for that if you do have that desire , but not the funds? Just curious. I was a working class kid, with very smart parents who just didn’t happen to go to college. I had an interest in Bryn Mawr, thought of being a classics major. Just was not going to happen. My parents wouldn’t have had the money, would have been very freaked out by the logistics of getting me there, guidance counselors weren’t focused on private schools, the first generation stuff was not a big deal in the 70’s. I went to a state school . It was fine. I think it was actually the best fit for me. I just wasn’t that confident and I applaud those of you who pushed through and went to elite schools. But, I do think the most confident and talented should be able to do well , regardless of where they went to school.
IDK if that was directed at me, but in NYC around 1980 a high academic achiever either went private for high school or got into one of the special schools (in my day, Stuy/Science/Tech/Hunter or Music and Art/Performing Arts). Any “regular” HS was likely to be a place that struggled to keep violence to a minimum, where getting through class without incident was an accomplishment. I don’t think that’s changed much in the years since except more people seem to go to public elementary and junior highs than they did back then. I attended my neighborhood public schools through 8th grade and many friends dipped out at some point before that. I didn’t have a single friend who went to the neighborhood HS.
So you wind up in these elite high schools (either mostly high income or academically achieving or both), in a culture that places a lot of value on elite colleges. Especially NE elites.
“why, if low income, is there such a draw toward “elite” LAC’s, private day schools, etc.?”
Among other reasons, they often give much better scholarships than public schools do.
^ that’s a huge reason for those who know that. So many low income kids don’t.
And the more recent great financial aid stuff is getting out there. Lots has changed in terms of a push for diversity,
I think it’s an epic fail on the part of higher ed if social ineptitude keeps low income kids out of college- any college. I didn’t know that “summer” was a verb- so what? I didn’t know that one didn’t call a servant a servant (I had read a lot of Jane Austen and my parents were big PBS fans) but they were called “staff”. I thought that everyone who lived in the Bronx was poor until someone explained Riverdale to me- it had rich people in it apparently, and Fieldston (an even RICHER part of Riverdale). I had never been to the Hamptons (and still haven’t) and had all the wrong clothes when I visited both my urban friends AND the suburban ones (how is it even possible to be overdressed for a country house and under-dressed to go to a museum? But I managed).
And I was middle class- not poor.
These are beyond ridiculous reasons to tell a kid who could get into XYZ generous school with a generous need-based package to confine his or her choices to the local directional (which could cost more) because it’s too hard to know when to wear a sweater and when to wear a jacket. Ridiculous.
My friends were kind, mostly ignored my gaffes (because THEY were mostly well bred and kind and classy in the best possible way) and their parents were wonderful without being patronizing. And I wasn’t the poor relation by any means- when they came to visit me, we did what my family did (popcorn night or whatever) and I never felt that they were slumming it.
Am I rich now? No. Do I have staff? No. Do I “summer” in the Vineyard? No. But I had a top-notch education, am forever grateful for the wonderful academic opportunities and great friends. And had “normal” friends as well- kids whose parents had normal jobs, lived in normal places, mostly as clueless as I was.
And really- that’s as far as it goes. I didn’t walk into college with a chip on my shoulder and didn’t walk out with one either. There was a contingent of wealthy European and Middle Eastern students at my college- they lived on a completely different level than everyone else. One had a bodyguard (a Saudi prince). They ate in restaurants every weekend, they took quick trips to islands I’d never heard of (and I loved geography).
What did they have to do with me?
My experience in NYC was exactly the same as that of OHMomof2. I can’t recall exact numbers, but in my graduating class at one of the specialized high schools, most students with a 90+ average went to an elite school, most paying very little to nothing at all. The school pushed the elite schools, not just because of financial aid (most were low income), but because of the belief, ingrained from freshman year, that the best and brightest went to the Ivies, other elite research universities, or top LAC’s, mostly in the NE. And the school also pushed the idea that the best and brightest went to these schools and eventually became doctors, lawyers, engineers, and professors. And those are the careers that many of the top kids pursued.
So, this emphasis on elites seems to be somewhat based on particular high school, region, as well as individual family culture. Probably how it’s been for a while.
Social misfit is not the same as social “ineptitude”.
Kids from working class and poor families are often arguably more socially competent than kids whose more privileged upbringing has sheltered them from many real-world problems and encounters. After all, a kid who has a job working in a restaurant or retail store in high school will tend to pick up a lot of people skills along the way. Among other things, that gives them experience working with adults from varied backgrounds.
And those who make it to elite schools are often also far more confident – after all, they had to stand out and break expectations to even get there.
One reason for the social divide is that the kids from the bottom 80% of the economic ladder aren’t always comfortable with what they encounter when they meet the kids from the top 5%. It’s not a matter of the knowing where the MOMA is – believe it or not, most museums have free days, public school kids go on field trips to museums, and being poor doesn’t necessarily mean being culturally illiterate.
There seems to be an attitude that the elite school is a culture in itself, and that the students who come in are supposed to align themselves to that culture, or at least to shut up and quit whining if they can’t.
But the point is that the students who come from the predominate social culture (the great mass of the un-rich) shouldn’t be expected to reshape their attitudes – their already-acquired outlook and experience has value. Just because they want the benefit of a top-quality education does NOT mean that they aspire to become investment bankers, or to live in mansions without household “staff” or to summer in the Hamptons or the French Riviera or whatever.
Many years ago I entered law school totally unaware that there large law firms catering to wealthy corporate clients even existed. My dad was a lawyer who had been a sole practitioner with a general practice; I had worked as a volunteer for Legal Aid in college. I thought that’s what lawyers did: help poor and middle class people solve their problems and get out of trouble. (I was aware that insurance companies had lawyers; those were the ones my father was typically up against in court).
It never occurred to me when I won entrance into the flagship law school of my state that I would be mostly surrounded by students who aspired to 6 figure salaries and a career track leading to partnership in a firm with hundreds of lawyers. (And that was at a public school – I didn’t bother applying to private schools because the $3500 or so annual tuition the private schools charged in those days seemed like a frivolous expenditure when I could attend a top-ranked public for a fraction of that amount).
I did not want to change, or become what most of my classmates wanted to be. My classmates interviewed for positions as summer associates at the big firms; I applied for funding for a summer internship from the Law Students Civil Rights Research Council.
I made friends in law school, maybe half a dozen or so. But most of the students seemed to be inhabiting a different universe that I really wanted no part of.
My sense is that my daughter’s college undergrad experience was pretty much the same. She made friends in college, but not many. The friends she made and kept come from similar backgrounds and share similar social values. The quality of the education was worth every cent (even with financial aid, both DD and I had to borrow to make it happen). But socially it was a bust. My DD did consider transferring, but felt the schools that were a social fit did not offer the same level of academic challenge. So she stuck through because of what was happening inside the classrooms.
I’d note that as a public school grad --from a public U. that is quite well regarded academically – my social experience at college was wonderful, but classes were easy. Maybe if I had stuck things through as a STEM major it would have been different, but once I shifted to a pre-law major, classes were a breeze. I didn’t really experience any sort of challenge academically until I got to law school.
What was the “pre-law major”, since students in any major (including STEM majors) can be pre-law?
If a major is popular with pre-law students, perhaps many of them chose it because it is relatively easy to get a high GPA in that major at that school.