I wouldn’t let the threat of socio-economic disparities discourage my kid from choosing a particular college. On campus, as in life, some of the wealthiest people you’ll meet are also some of the most kind and generous. The deepest friendship I had in college was with a very rich girl who taught me a thing or two about humility.
I mistakenly took her for being normal because we used to pick cheap restaurants to save money and she wore clothes from the mall like everyone else. Anyway, she turned out to be extremely wealthy – as in my-father-is-an-oil-tycoon-wealthy. She brought me home for a weekend one time, which is how I found out. We were driving up some winding hills into a woodsy isolated area and she got really quiet. I think we circled around a few times before we stopped at a gated estate and I had no idea why we stopped. I thought she was going to tell me we had a flat tire or we ran out of gas. Instead she said, “I have to tell you something and I don’t want you to be shocked. …pause…my parents are rich.” To someone whose parents worked minimum wage jobs like mine, rich was defined by living in a McMansion and having newer model Japanese car. I had no idea what rich truly was until the gates parted and we pulled in. It was like a scene out of a movie. And, in fact, movies had been shot on her parents property.
I would like to think that exposure to my humble upbringing opened her eyes just as her background did me. But she was far more wise about the socio-class dynamic than I was, and she taught me by example to not to judge people by money. In hindsight, she probably picked the cheap restaurants because she didn’t want me to spend more than I was comfortable spending. She was one of the most considerate and hardest working people I’ve met in my life. She deliberately hid the fact that her family had money and she was seeking out opportunities to prove herself, just like someone who was poor. She didn’t act entitled or spoiled or conspicuous at all. She hung out with scrappy first-generation students and you couldn’t tell her apart. Total class all the way.
Our friendship was a huge part of my campus experience. I was a better person for it, and my kids would be lucky to have a similar life-changing friendship.
@PurpleTitan I realize there are some LACs as well as universities that are just as generous as the Ivy League schools, and that not all Ivy schools have the same FA policies. S2s LAC actually has pretty generous FA compared to the average private school so I am still not really complaining, just pointing out some differences. The article of course focused on “Ivy” because slamming those schools is a national pastime. It doesn’t matter that their aid is amongst the best in the nation, it still isn’t good enough and no matter what perks they add, it never will be.
@MotherOfDragons, even if you make a mistaken recommendation, they still have to buy in, presumably, so I don’t see the pressure. Now, crossing off a school due to mistaken assumptions is a bigger deal.
Pragmatic- lovely story. I had a few friendships like the one you described from my college years (who knew that in NY you could have an elevator open into the family’s living room, not a communal hallway?) and my primary takeaway was not “oh wow, we are really poor and provincial and some people are really rich and sophisticated”. These relationships have been deep and enduring because at age 18 EVERYONE is raw clay on some level, regardless of whose parents have more money.
There are some lessons that the “connected” can teach their less connected friends from college which I couldn’t have learned from my hometown. I got a job offer senior year- I was so thrilled, I accepted immediately. (was graduating into a recession, so getting a job prior to graduation was not a given. Plus I had been a Classics major, so the fact that a major corporation was hiring me for a training program was a big deal). One of my friends asked, “how much is the relocation package?” I didn’t know what a relocation package was and had never heard the term. And of course, my offer didn’t include one. When she suggested that I call back my contact in HR and ask the company to pay for a trip to find an apartment, cover moving expenses, etc. I thought she was crazy. But I did- and they offered me a small “lump sum” to cover my move. Free money? Who knew?
My parents were teachers. My neighbors back home were librarians and owned small retail businesses and were social workers and a few dentists (the big shots). Who knew that someone would send you money even before you started your job? Who would have had the nerve to ask?
I’ve been in situations for much of my adult life where I’ve clearly been a fish out of water, but my attitude has always been “I’m at the bottom of a steep learning curve”, NOT “I don’t belong here”. I attribute that to college. I wouldn’t dream of having prevented my kids from “adjusting” in this way- whether it meant being the stupid one in a college classroom, or being the poor one in a social situation. Figuring out how to navigate a code you haven’t been taught is a very good skill for one’s entire life.
I wasn’t going to get involved in this thread, too personal, but I feel I should say something about how well elite schools have worked for my kids, both in private high school and college. We are middle class–really middle class,single parent–and have had financial aid all along.
I in 5 of this year’s Harvard students comes from a family making less than $65000. My daughter has no problem finding friends. Harvard provides lots of well paying (for students) jobs as well as free or paying summer and winter break programs and fellowships. Air fare is a non-issue. It’s cheap enough, but my DD1 doesn’t have time to come home, and I can’t see why she should (very often) given all the wonderful opportunities she has.
I don’t know about other elite schools, but as a middle class family, we aren’t having any trouble socially or economically with Harvard.
Personal frugality does appear to be socially acceptable (and sometimes respected) in the computing (and engineering) domains. Yes, some do spend lavishly, but others do not. Indeed, the nature of the job – designing things within sometimes-tight constraints (often driven by cost) – can encourage a different mentality compared to a job where one may find it advantageous to give the appearance of lavish spending to impress others.
On the other hand, there are some who do spend like there is no tomorrow, like there are in all domains.
For CS, retention/attrition (regardless of gender) can be heavily affected by a school’s capacity limitations on the major. Schools with undersized CS departments relative to the CS major interest (which has risen rapidly in the last few years) do sometimes-heavy weeding to keep enrollment in the CS major under control.
I’ve noticed some things D has learned from her peers who attended private day schools…the ability to ask for an extension, for example. In her public HS that was simply not (successfully) done. But among some private HS school peers, it’s acceptable to do in college if you have a reason and it will likely be granted, too.
@NeoDymium - you have made many posts on this thread in which you imply expertise and/or direct knowledge of a variety of circumstances. For example:
I can post many other examples including one in which you flat out assert I’m wrong without any proof or even rationale. It makes me wonder how you’ve developed such deep and diverse insight. I’m not the only one wondering:
Could you please give the readers of this thread some background on how you developed your knowledge.
Re: my post above referenced a post of @NeoDymium which included the following:
This comment was in response to a post of mine. My comments about professors was informed by my experience at a highly rated private college and top MBA program as well as several personal friends who are Columbia professors. I also commented about students and those comments were informed by conversations I had in response to this thread with a Columbia alum, a current student at Columbia and one of the aforementioned Columbia professors.
Again, I’m really curious what informs the comments you make with such certainty @NeoDymium.
@CHD2013@NeoDymium I’m missing some context, but is one of you implying it’s wealthy students always “freezing out” their less affluent peers?
Why are affluent students always blamed if a lower means student feels isolated and struggles to befriend any of them? In my experience, it goes both ways. Sure, some rich students are snobs and have zero interest in poor kids. But many lower means students are outright hostile to peers they see wearing a certain polo shirt or expensive winter coat. There’s also a level of jealousy (or intimidation) felt from the assertiveness, confidence, and polish of wealthier classmates. And honestly, many low means students are close minded and not open to new experiences, ex., sushi is gross I’ll NEVER try it, alternative music is lame, not open to traveling.
@OldFashioned1 - to clarify and provide you context, I think professors rarely care about a student’s family situation and students are generally turned off when other students seek out students from rich families.
Based on my personal experiences and recent conversations with people with direct knowledge of the social situation at Columbia U, I think it would be unusual at an elite college/Columbia for "wealthy students [to be] always “freezing out” their less affluent peers.
Not to stray too far off topic, but there are plenty of internship opportunities at big state Us, at least the flagship level schools. They may not pay for trips to NYC, but gets lots of firms to come to them.
Thanks Hanna. I was thinking this must be more true at big southern or Midwestern schools, where wealthy in-state kids want to stay. In the NE, many wealthy kids opt for private schools.
While there may be pockets of wealth at those schools, isn’t there simultaneously a larger group of middle/working class kids than might be at an elite?. What percentage of kids live in the highest priced dorms? By the way, that practice is not limited to big stat Us. NYU and other privates have tiered pricing for dorm rooms. And do the really poor kids, like those in the article, get fully accepted by the truly wealthy kids? It happens, as inPargamaticMom’s story (thanks for sharing).
There are many privates that are essentially for the well-off, with a small percentage of poor kids that get financial aid or merit money. As Planner says, the LAC for her second child does not cover lots of expenses. At that kind of school, I wonder if the poorer kids have less opportunity due to finances.
" I was thinking this must be more true at big southern or Midwestern schools, where wealthy in-state kids want to stay. In the NE, many wealthy kids opt for private schools."
That’s right. The traditions developed differently in different parts of the country. In Big 10, Big 12, SEC country, the public schools are the be-all end-all in a lot of communities.
“isn’t there simultaneously a larger group of middle/working class kids than might be at an elite?”
Sure. The biggest plus of flagships is that there’s critical mass of everybody. What there may not be is a lot of mixing across groups. Some of the elite schools are doing a little better on that score, but it’s a struggle for everyone. Creating true connections among diverse people is a worthwhile, but very difficult, task.
Some (not all) of the big southern and midwestern flagships have few students from lower to lower-middle income families. Percentage of full time beginning undergraduate students on Pell grants:
13% Penn State
13% Virginia
14% Michigan
14% Wisconsin
14% Georgia Tech
15% Virginia Tech
18% Alabama
18% Ohio State