Ohio State right between Florida and Texas
No one said it was the only piece of evidence. But it demonstrates that brand power is most concentrated in home region.
You guys, we live 30 min from Wellesley and when my daughter told people that’s where she’s going, a lot of them said, “Where’s that?” Her own grandparents (born and raised here) hadn’t heard of it. Some of these people (including Grampy) couldn’t remember it after she explained and think she goes to Lesley U. :)) They still have no idea it’s “prestigious.” Colleges beyond tv football and/or basketball just aren’t on most people’s radar.
^^^^ That said, it’s actually very nice to be around people who are not conscientious of prestige or ladder climbing. They are just proud of you because you’re you.
Most people I know (at least well enough with respect to this issue) seem to fall into one of two camps on prestige. One is prestige at all costs. Why did your kid go to school X? Because its the highest ranked school that accepted him/her. Doesn’t matter its cost (or what is given up/sacrificed to pay it). Doesn’t matter its “fit” however you define it. Or where it is in the country. Or how it may line up with a given kid’s career aspirations. Highest ranked? There we go.
Other can is a practical camp. Prestige in an of itself isn’t really a factor (at least its down the list). Costs matter. Distance from home matters. “Fit” (again however defined) matters. Tie in to career aspirations matter.
And in my experience, folks in each group have a difficult time understanding folks in the other group. What do you mean your kid is going to state U? He had amazing stats/app. Could have gone anywhere/many other places better than that. And on the other side, you are paying how much for that degree? Delaying retirement how long? You could have bought him/her a house for the cost difference (or at least provided a huge down payment on one).
I don’t see either side as right or wrong. Just different.
No, of course not. I never said that. Other evidence would be, e.g., public opinion surveys, like the one I cited at length in post #296.
"And in my experience, folks in each group have a difficult time understanding folks in the other group. What do you mean your kid is going to state U? He had amazing stats/app. Could have gone anywhere/many other places better than that. "
Again, that is regional. Here in the greater Chicago area, with the exception of some very small demographic circles, no one blinks an eye in the least if Bright Kid goes to Illinois, or Wisconsin, or Michigan. It’s not seen as the “step down” to attend a state school the way it is in the east coast.
“Every single one of the top 20 research u’s and LACs disproportionately skewed to its home region, and the Ivies just as much so.”
Can we tell if it’s the school or the applicants doing the skewing?
@Pizzagirl I am from Ohio. Midwest just like you. Not east coast (many folks on the east coast struggle to know Ohio’s time zone – central or mountain even though its eastern – no way they view us as east coast). Could it be the case that some people view it as a step down who either you don’t know or who won’t say that to you (at least in part because people who talk to you about it know your views – which based on your posts here which I have seen you do not view as a step down)? As I indicated, I know people in both groups. So its not like everyone I know falls into the “step down” camp. And in terms of numbers, those who do not view it as a step down are in the majority (of at least the people I know and talk about this issue with).
Saillakeerie - I’m orig from the NE. It was a culture adjustment for me to come out here. I did not want large state schools for my children, but i can’t argue that they aren’t good choices out here. I’m still an elite school snob myself, lol.
Vonlost - no, it does not indicate whether the school is favoring home region or whether it’s a function of the applicant pool skewing regionally. While there is going to be some favoring of home region (faculty kids, good-neighbor outreach), I suspect that it’s primarily driven by the nature of each school’s applicant pool being highly skewed to its home region. That is consistent w other data bclintonk has pulled re where residents of each state have SAT/ACT scores sent. It’s extremely obvious from that data that the “preferred schools” differ strongly by region.
I make the assumption that students in each region are generally equally qualified.
Well, those are all excellent state schools. Since we are talking about the Forbes list, those three show up as #72, #69, and #44 respectively. D is considering Michigan as a match/safety and would be happy to go there.
In contrast, the highest ranked public school in New England is Vermont, at #138.
If there are elite school snobs in Cleveland, I am confident there are some in Chicago as well.
The Big Ten schools typically represent well in various rankings (for whatever such rankings are worth).
Yes - isn’t that what I said in #306? Of course there are affluent school districts and private schools where Ivy / elite fever is comparable to (and indistinguishable from) that of the East Coast. New Trier, Glenbrook, Highland Park, Latin School of Chicago, etc. aren’t representative of all of Chicagoland.
Duke actually favors applicants from NC (use to be both Carolinas), so that probably tells you roughly their applicant pool distribution.
Right, the Northeast doesn’t have the same depth of well-regarded publics as B10 country (if you don’t count land-grant Cornell) though UMD and Pitt are well-respected in some fields (even RU in philosophy) and UVa is close by. But that’s why you see plenty of Northeasterners applying to UVa, UMich, UNC, Wisconsin and plenty of other publics and privates far and wide.
This is my impression as well (although I’ve only lived on the Coasts). Nonetheless, even where I live now (under an hour from from Villanova, Haverford, Swarthmore, and Penn), the vast majority of folks I meet (including those on Philly’s status-conscious Main Line), do not look down on state schools, especially flagships, and many of them send their kids to them.
Of course it’s different in private school circles, where private colleges and universities are the clear preference, but from what I’ve seen, as many folks will send their kids to a good private LAC in the top 20-100 range (US News rated) if only because those are the schools they attended. And they’re not snobby or elitist about it either; it’s just what they know and prefer for their own kids. Yes, the top kids are mainly headed to Ivies and other elites (including the prestigious state flagships like Berkeley, Michigan, UVA, and UNC, where they’re mainly full pay), but lots of kids head to CU and UVM too.
People have different priorities and value different things, at every income/class level.
I think the regional skew is mostly in the applicant pool.
Each year, the College Board publishes for each state a list of the 50 colleges receiving the most SAT score reports from that state’s residents. Harvard appears on most of these lists. Because Harvard “normally requires” two SAT Subject Tests for each application, we can assume that most Harvard applicants send SAT score reports to Harvard, but not everyone who sends a score report ultimately completes an application. Thus the Harvard number represents a rough approximation of the upper bound on applications from that state.
Consider the following:
• Massachusetts, with a population barely over half that of Illinois (MA 6.8 million, Illinois 12.9 million), sends more than three times as many SAT score reports to Harvard (MA 2,488 v. IL 796 in the Fall 2015 admissions cycle)
• Connecticut, with a population less than 1/3 that of Ohio (CT 3.6 million, OH 11.6 million), sends 34% more score reports to Harvard (CT 775, OH 577). Connecticut also sends nearly three times as many SAT score reports to Yale (CT 1,099, OH 395).
• New Hampshire sends more SAT score reports to Harvard than Wisconsin (NH 241, WI 212), despite the fact that Wisconsin’s population is roughly 5 times that of NH (NH 1.2 million, WI 5.8 million)
• Michigan, with a population 10% larger than New Jersey (MI 9.9 million, NJ 9.0 million), sends about 1/6 as many SAT score reports to the state’s most popular top 20 private school (MI 565 to Harvard v. NJ 3,490 to Penn)
• California, with its mega-population of 39.1 million, sends more SAT score reports to Harvard than any other state (6,196), but that number pales in comparison to the numbers California sends to local elite privates like USC (22,979) and Stanford (16,118)
• State by state, it’s fairly predictable that the most popular elite private (judging by the number of SAT score reports) is either in-state or at least in the same region, e.g., Texas 7,137 to Rice; Florida 2,028 to Duke; New York 8,369 to Cornell; Illinois 1,422 to Northwestern; Pennsylvania 3,864 to Penn; Ohio 1,342 to Case Western; Georgia 3,015 to Emory; North Carolina 2,960 to Duke; New Jersey 3,490 to Penn; Virginia 1,364 to Duke; Washington State, 1,686 to Stanford; Arizona 942 to Stanford; Tennessee 618 to Vanderbilt; Massachusetts 2,488 to Harvard; Connecticut 1,099 to Yale; Rhode Island 466 to Brown; New Hampshire 403 to Dartmouth; Indiana 1,376 to Notre Dame; Wisconsin 235 to Northwestern; Maryland 2,117 to Johns Hopkins; Colorado 575 to Stanford; South Carolina 714 to Duke; Alabama 230 to Vanderbilt. You need to be a little careful of these numbers because many top privates don’t require SAT Subject Tests if the applicant submits the ACT with writing, so in ACT-dominant states (most of the Midwest and much of the South) SAT score report numbers may substantially understate the numbers of applicants to those schools. So, for example, it’s likely that more than 1,422 Illinois residents applied to Northwestern in 2015. That’s why Harvard, which “normally requires” SAT Subject Tests from all applicants, is a better test of regional preferences–that, coupled with the fact that Harvard is the only school that shows up in the top 50 in almsot every state. But in a way that caveat only strengthens my central claim about the local/regional skew in applicants. If Northwestern is the most popular elite private among Illinois residents as measured by SAT score reports, it probably leads by an even wider margin in actual applications because many Illinois residents take only the ACT and may apply to Northwestern using only ACT scores. Although Northwestern “recommends” SAT Subject Tests, it doesn’t “normally require” them as Harvard does.
@bclintonk The imbalance of applicants to big name colleges among states is true, I believe, as you analyzed. That’s why there’s such a thing as “geographic diversity” elite colleges are pursuing. However, I have a hard time relating this fact to the name recognition or “prestige barometer” of colleges. In other words, would most students applying and competitive to UMich still know that Harvard is a more prestigious college? I think so. Just because they choose not to apply to Harvard doesn’t mean they don’t know Harvard is a more “elite” college than UMich. To most 18 year olds, it’s scary enough (and for parents too) to think that they will for the first time live away from home. To live in a different part of county, many more miles away from home, and among the rich and the spoiled as some of them imagine is intimating. Then, the fact that public flagships in Midwest are more than decent choices certainly helps.
I find it kind of funny that NJ sends more score reports to Penn than to Princeton.
@usualhopeful, Penn offers many more majors and is roughly as close as Princeton.
@panpacific, the Gallup polls showed that nationally, Harvard led by a mile and arguably Yale and Stanford (and MIT in STEM) are seen as among the tops. But go beyond those handful, and it’s much more dependent on region.
As I’ve said before, Harvard is a special case. Pretty much everyone has heard of Harvard and thinks it’s a great school. Do “most people” applying to Michigan know that Harvard is “more prestigious”? I have no way of knowing that. I’d guess that by and large, people applying to schools like Michigan are a pretty savvy bunch and pretty much know the pecking order among schools in terms of selectivity, but I’m not sure they’re all as motivated by “prestige” as your question seems to imply. For a great public flagship like Michigan, you probably need to divide applicants into two groups, in-state and out-of-state. Relatively few Michigan residents apply to Harvard or any other elite private, certainly in comparison to states in the Northeast where the numbers applying to elite privates are sometimes an order of magnitude higher relative to the size of the population. No doubt many Michigan residents don’t apply to Harvard because they think, probably accurately, that their chances of admission are slim to none. Others might just prefer not to be so far from home, as you suggest. But I suspect for many of the most qualified HS seniors in Michigan, it’s a fairly straightforward, pragmatic calculation: why bother applying to fancy out-of-state private schools when I can get an outstanding education right here in my own backyard at a world-class university at a reasonable price, both because of in-state tuition and because the University of Michigan meets full need for Michigan residents?. For these students, any increment of prestige that might come from attending Harvard or any other elite private school just isn’t worth the candle; it’s not something they think about or care about. Do they “know” about it? Well, I suppose if push came to shove, most would say Harvard is more famous and in that sense prestigious, though I guarantee many would deny that Harvard is a “better” school in any respect that meant anything to them. Others would say of course Harvard is more prestigious and perhaps even better in some respects (those being separate questions), but any increment of difference was either not so great or not so important that it made any practical difference to them.
Out-of-state applicants to Michigan are a different story. Some may have particular reasons for making Michigan their first choice, e.g., they’re legacies and it’s a family tradition, or they’re interested in a particular program that Michigan offers and is particularly strong in, or they’re big-time Wolverines football fans, or they’re recruited athletes themselves, or whatever. But I suspect most OOS applicants have Michigan as just one of a number of very good schools they’re applying to, and if it’s the best one they’re accepted at, or the best fit among those they’re accepted at, and if they can afford it, they elect to attend. (This is reflected in relative yield rates; Michigan gets a much higher yield of accepted in-state applicants than accepted OOS applicants, because the latter generally apply to many other strong schools and are accepted to several). I suspect for this latter group of OOS students, prestige is somewhat more important; if it weren’t, why wouldn’t they just choose their own state flagship? They’re probably more acutely aware of the perceived prestige of various institutions. Not to say that prestige is all that matters to them, either.
As I said, though, Harvard is a special case. Everyone’s heard of it, everyone’s heard it’s great. Penn or Dartmouth? Not so much. I can say pretty confidently these schools just aren’t on the radar screens of most Minnesotans, except in two or three of the wealthiest suburban districts and three or four of the most exclusive private high schools and among the families of academics. The same is true in Michigan where I lived for many years and still have family. The same is substantially true in Illinois except in a handful of wealthy suburbs, mostly on the North Shore.