<p>Plenty of middle school kids say they want to be doctors when they grow up - it’s a profession that they can see, they know it commands some level of respect / prestige, is well-paid, etc. However, extrapolating that to “pre-med” and college choices at that stage is insane. Plenty other middle school kids want to be astronauts or police officers or ballerinas or baseball players, too, and you see how well that plays out. My S was all about creative writing in middle school and early high school. He was going to be the next JK Rowling. In my mind, I had him at things like the U of Iowa Writer’s Workshop at the grad level. Guess what? He changed. His interests morphed into an entirely new area. That’s how life goes. To have pigeonholed him based on middle school would be a joke. My D didn’t have an interest area til 11th grade, when a certain area began to have a hold on her. Again, how life goes. </p>
<p>My kids did one college visit the summer before 11th grade (tacked on to a family vacation) and then we did about 18 or so over 11th grade, with one just last week. Even from the first one to the last, I saw them grow tremendously in terms of being able to look at a campus and truly think through do I see myself here, what are the opportunities, what speaks to me, what gives me pause or hesitation. I would not trust their observations prior to 11th grade (if we had made college visits during that time). </p>
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<p>LOL. This is where it’s evident that you take your definition of elite straight from the rankings of USNWR, as well as hearsay back in the old country. I have no dog in the Brown fight – Brown is not a school that either of my kids would ever be interested in – not their type – but there’s absolutely no question that it’s one of the most elite colleges in the country, and there would be little / no reason to distinguish between choosing between that and HYPSM on the grounds that one was more “elite” or “prestigious” than the other. </p>
<p>You actually seem to think that there are differences in school quality between #1-5, 6-10, 11-20, and 20-30. The differences, if they exist, are minor in nature and given a smart student, are rather irrelevant to anything. I would see no reason for a smart student admitted to schools in the 1-30 range to choose based on any other criteria other than personal fit and preference (leaving money aside, of course). Of course Rice could be a viable choice over Princeton. Of course CMU could be chosen over MIT. Why couldn’t those be perfectly appropriate choices for a given student? Why chop off the student’s foot in an attempt to make HYPSM fit the best?</p>
<p>I think the very fact that you actually distinguished between HYPSM and (say) Duke/JHU/Brown screams someone chasing prestige. At least own it. At least own that your wife had a very explicit goal of HYPSM and that D had darn well better contort herself to like one of those schools and be good enough to get in. Your D is lucky that she fit on both counts.</p>
<p>Part of intelligence is also looking at the situation around you with clear eyes.
If I went over to much of Asia, for example, where college entrances are predicated on the achievement of scores on certain grueling tests, I would be dumb if I said “But my kid helps little old ladies across the street / plays tennis / is the president of the chess club and those things are really important in college entrance!” It would not be intelligent for me to take American cultural norms and apply them when just opening my eyes and looking around would tell me that these are not the case.</p>
<p>By the same token, I don’t see what’s so intelligent about applying home country cultural norms to a country where they don’t apply. Here, in the US, HYPSM does <em>not</em> have some immensely higher level of prestige than Brown (or the other schools at the level we’ve been talking about). Economic or career success in life here in the US is <em>not</em> dependent upon going to HYPSM and all other college grads will be lucky to flip burgers. There are a range of places that provide elite educations (I’d say anywhere in the top 30 in USNWR is pretty elite - and don’t use 30 as an absolute), and even more places that provide excellent educations. It doesn’t work that way here, so why act as though it does? I agree the goal of an elite education is a worthwhile one – but when in the US elite extends far beyond the Ivies, why focus only on them?</p>
I don’t think it is a question of intelligence, it is a question of cultural values that are highly ingrained and seem to work well for them. It does no harm to others, and it is their kid and family. I am not going to tell them how to live their lives just because they are here now, as long as they don’t break the law or infringe on my rights.</p>
<p>I wasn’t saying what I said to justify a position on either side, I am just saying it is what it is. Like you, PG, I disagree with that kind of regimented thinking. But I do understand it, based on the culture and values many of these families hold. Sure, let’s tell everyone that comes over here they have to give up everything they knew their whole life and be “Americans”. What does that even mean? Yes, they have to obey our laws. Yes, I think they should all learn English. Lots of other things too. Otherwise, we can suggest, we can prod, we can try and point out why certain things don’t work as well over here. We do a lot of that on CC. But at a certain point, they are what they are and that’s the end of it.</p>
<p>Perhaps the record of 11th grade determines where a kid can go, her GPA, AP and test scores, etc. Only those with stellar records can talk about top schools, while the rest of us with mostly A-BC average kids have to focus on something else.</p>
<p>I must be missing your point lake42ks. Sure, for 95+% of students, how you have performed through 11th grade largely determines what schools you can get into. But the point was whether a student that age really “knows” what they want to do. At most American universities, students don’t have to finally declare a major until the end of sophomore year. Over half the students in America change their major at least once. So I think the point was that to search for colleges based on what even an 11th grader thinks they want for a major has some risk, and for a 7th-8th grader it would be something of a waste of time to start searching based on what they think they want. It has little to do with the quality of the school regarding this, schools ranked #75-100 have much the same majors as schools ranked #1-25.</p>
<p>PG, I agree with much of what you write, though I also agree with fallenchemist. </p>
<p>Yes, I cannot fathom looking into specific colleges much before 11th grade, and certainly not in middle school. What kids want in a college changes over time and their record is not yet established. A big reason, though, for me, is that to really start the college search much before junior year is obsessing over college selection for too many years and should not be the focus for a middle school through tenth grader . The focus should be the schoolwork and establishing interests and so on. </p>
<p>By the same token, I realize what we are reading about for a family is very cultural. There is a fixation on a very small group of schools as “must haves” and the idea that colleges ranked 10-30 are not elite enough. It is hard for some of us to relate to. I say that as a family who values education very highly but the kids were not fixated on the college process at a young age. The main thing at that age was “I want to go to a good college” and they always did the best they could in school. But for another culture, I think the whole college thing (and very specific colleges) are a big focus from early on. It is hard to relate to but I’ve read about it plenty to see this cultural linkage. </p>
<p>As far as majors…well, I have seen it in two distinct ways with my two kids. I can honestly say that for D2, there was NO discussion EVER about her major as anyone who has known her would know she was going into musical theater as that has been her lifelong passion since age 4. There was really no decision made to go for a BFA in MT because it was sort of ingrained within her. We just knew. As I said, she didn’t know specific colleges back in middle school but at the time, she knew of NYU/Tisch and claimed she would go there one day if she got in. She did end up there but never began the college search until the winter before she applied and looked fully into other schools and didn’t even apply ED to Tisch because she knew she had not seen enough schools yet to make that decision (because she applied to college in her junior year of HS and had only gotten to see four schools before applications, but saw all 8 that year, and this was due to our thinking she’d start the college process and visit all schools in her junior year as we thought she’d be applying to college as a senior). But my kid truly knew what field she wanted to be in from a VERY young age and it has never ever wavered and is a deep seated passion and I consider it a part of her “being.” She referred to it in an essay as her “raison de etre.” </p>
<p>But my other kid is a bit more like you were talking about and is pretty much the norm for many teens. She had some interest in high school in the field of architecture, but it is not like she could study that in high school enough to know she wanted to pursue it. She had a “direction” based on some experiences and interests but was not ready to commit to a particular major. Thus she sought out colleges that offer architecture in case she followed through with that intended interest and direction but was not willing to commit to enter a BArch (plus wanted more liberal arts anyway). She did end up going into architecture though. But her sister committed to a major/program by having to apply/audition directly to be admitted to the specialized program. But most students are like my D1 and not ready to commit and many even change their majors in college and many enter as undecided. D1 did enter with a direction and possible major and it all came to be. But D2 truly knew what she wanted to do from a very young age and it is not like we pigeon holed her into it (like the HYPSM scenario).</p>
<p>My D feel in love with Columbia/Barnard when she was ten. We were not showing her colleges. We went to The Cathedral of St. John the Divine, just casually exploring different Manhattan neighborhoods, and she felt like she belonged there and never wanted to be anywhere else. Thank goodness it worked out. It was not a strategy of mine, it just happened, much to my surprise.</p>
<p>My younger fell in love with Vassar looking at it with his older sister before your time line. It happens.</p>
<p>DD did Summer at Brown after nineth grade so she looked at that too.</p>
<p>I can imagine families casually looking much earlier than 11th grade.</p>
<p>mythmom - sure, that happens. Same thing with my S and U Chicago, although he didn’t end up applying (wouldn’t have gotten in). I don’t think that is what is really the point here. We are talking about concerted, organized efforts I think. Visits where seeing the school is the point of the visit. That kind of thing.</p>
<p>Right. And the people who are doing so believe that these are the keys to success in America. Even though they are sitting here in America where it’s evident to pretty much everyone that attending HYPSM or the top 10 aren’t remotedly “keys to success” that is unobtainable if you wind up at a “lower” college. </p>
<p>It’s the cognitive dissonance which fascinates me. Like I said, to me it would be the equivalent of me moving to China and pushing my kid to be volunteer-of-the-year or tennis-player-of-the-year and believing that doing so would position my kid for success in college admissions. I would expect people to correct me, to say, “Sorry, no, you’re wrong, over here, volunteering and tennis playing has nothing to do with success in college admissions, and here, success in college admissions pretty does predict your future path here.” I would be an idiot not to listen to that advice, whether or not I liked it.</p>
<p>fallenchemist…I agree. As I said, we were walking by NYU/Tisch when my kid was 12 (we live six hours away) and she had known of the school due to much older friends who were going there for her field of interest. We didn’t do a visit (we were in NYC for an audition) but upon walking by the school she did remark a desire to go there some day. </p>
<p>That is not the same as compiling a college list and doing organized visits and talking abut specific colleges to attend while in middle school. I feel the college process is a bit stressful and consuming and I can’t see starting it so young. I feel the focus before junior year should be on other things. While it is good to be exposed to college goals and seeing a campus if in the neighborhood, it seems too much to me to be picking out colleges to attend at a young age. But I think there is a short list of “acceptable” colleges for those in certain cultures and the “Ivyhopeful” idea is ingrained and planned for way before junior year when a kid typically explores various colleges.</p>
<p>In other words, in my family, the kids, when young, would say, “I want to go to a good college some day” and in some families, I guess the mantra is “I will go to an Ivy” (or “Ivy+”). Thus we see member names on CC with “Ivy” in them.
(oh, and for some families, “going Ivy” is not elite enough, I forgot, it has to be HYPMS…initials my kids never even heard of, LOL)</p>
<p>True, Pizzagirl, but the same thing that makes many of those immigrants to the USA less flexible in adapting (or abandoning their cultural beliefs, however you want to look at it) is also true over there. The systems, and the measures of success, are more rigid as well. America is so confusing, so much of a melting pot, so diverse in beliefs that it is hard to say one should listen to “advice”. Which advice? There are a lot of people that are not immigrants that think you have to go to a tippy top school to succeed. There are a lot that say you have to go to Penn State to succeed, if they happen to have immigrated to Pittsburgh or Altoona and listen to their 5th generation neighbors.</p>
<p>In general, people born and raised here, especially a few generations in, are far more flexible if they move to other cultures. You are expecting a lot from people, especially if they are not university educated themselves, but quite often even if they are, to just throw off a lifetime of values and just say “hey yeah, I’ll do it like the Americans”. I am not sure, in the context of this particular topic, where they would even acquire that. It is far more likely they hear “Harvard, Harvard, Harvard”. No wonder they think it is needed. That, in fact, is a big part of what I think is wrong with USNWR. Not that it needs to cater to immigrants, but that it perpetuates the wrongheaded view that people need to worry about status in everything, including college attendance.</p>
<p>Well, it’s amazing how you never see people on CC talk about how they are “re-educating” the folks back at home who are disappointed that they’ve chosen to go to “only” Emory or Rice or Vanderbilt or what-have-you instead of the Holy Five of HYPSM (or maybe Caltech and Berkeley as well). Nope, it’s all about being afraid that you’ve let them all down instead of re-educating them to the reality of life in the US being far more nuanced than success-only-from-a-handful-of-colleges. One gets the sense that if the folks in the old country asserted that NYC was the capital of NY, they’d hide the state capitol building in Albany rather than correct their misperceptions.</p>
<p>USNWR makes its methodology reasonably clear and no one is prohibited from using them as a jumping-off point instead of as a Bible. I don’t think USNWR bears any responsibility for the fact that some people aren’t nuanced enough to get that there is little real difference between #6 and #8. USNWR always brings forth other lists of colleges according to other criteria - up and comers, etc.</p>
<p>One thing, however, that I have observed frequently on CC, is that some children who are born into these particular immigrant cultures sometimes are trying to rebel against the expectations of HYPSM, etc. There are posts on here of these teens who are saying they don’t want to go to HYPSM and really like X or Y (still really great and selective colleges) and don’t know how to deal with their parents who have a very narrow outlook and expectation. And some struggle with that. But perhaps some “change” in these cultural expectations" of “Ivy or bust” might happen over time as subsequent generations from these type of immigrant families are born and raised in the US and exposed to a broader view of “good colleges.” I don’t know, but just saying what i have observed.</p>
<p>People from those cultures do not “re-educate” their elders, or even their families in many cases. Besides, even a ton of “American” familes cannot convince their relatives that Wash U is a great school. Some things are just hopeless.</p>
<p>I completely disagree with you about USNWR. They title the whole thing the “Best” colleges. That makes it completely sound like if you are not going to the “best”, you are going somewhere inferior. I don’t think that is a surprising or even unreasonable conclusion among kids and/or parents that might be somewhat naive about this whole thing. We see it on here all the time. USNWR makes it seem very scientific. It is asking a lot of some people to understand why these methodologies are very suspect. I won’t waste more time on this, I already went through it a few times. I will just say you seem to think everyone is as flexible, intelligent, and aware as you are, and if they are not they should be. I am afraid the world just is not like that.</p>
<p>fallenchemist, I also agree that USNews and this Forbes list do a disservice by calling it “best colleges.” Information about colleges is useful. The whole ranking thing perpetuates these issues we are talking about. </p>
<p>And yes, the younger generation with immigrant parents can’t change the perceptions of their parents. But since they were raised in America and exposed beyond the idea that only HYPSM will do, it might mean for their NEXT generation, they may not perpetuate that it is “Ivy or bust.” I don’t know, but just throwing it out there. As more generations evolve, they are further removed from the immigrants’ mentality from the “old country.”</p>
<p>let me toss in another hypothesis. folks here trying to deemphasize the importance of prestige, tend to cite everything from economic studies, to lists of CEOs. Many of which, by the nature of things, are dominated by the American born. </p>
<p>Is it conceivable, that for a marginal ethnic, cultural, or racial group, the “name on the diploma” actually IS more important for success - a sign of having succeeded at acculturation? My strong impression is that for Jewish folks in the 1940s and 1950s that was the case, or at least thought to be the case. </p>
<p>Joe Biden made the Vice Presidency from U Delaware, right? But did Barack Obama need Columbia as validation? Did Jack Kennedy, at a much earlier stage in the ascent of Irish Catholics, need Harvard as validation? </p>
<p>This assumes that employers, social circles, etc are actually discriminating (consciously or not) today by race and cultural group. We are supposed to believe thats a thing of the past, but I believe it is not. It at least should not be ruled out that the immigrants who disproportionatey believe a name brand diploma is important, may be rational, before we analyze their culture to determine why they are not rational.</p>
<p>Yet amazingly, the vast majority of people in this country happily send their kids off to local colleges or their flagship or directional state u’s, haven’t a clue about USNWR rankings, and aren’t wasting their time worrying about whether their kids’ college is “the best.” Not everyone is interested in seeking the very best. Most people are seeking good-enough for their purposes (especially tempered by distance from home and money).</p>
