<br>
If only that were true. Alas, the system is the product of a retired Ohio University economist named Richard Vedder. I am reminded of an old political cartoon showing the May Day parade in Moscow. Marching with the soldiers and tanks were men wearing business suits. When one bystander asked who they were and why they were iin the parade, another responded: “They are economists. Youd be surprised at how much damage they can do.” </p>
<p>The system actually has the right idea in that it focuses on outputs rather than inputs. (USNWR focuses on inputs.) But the data are so noisy as to be almost worthless. Even the Richard Vedders of the world should be able to see that.</p>
<p>POIH, Sorry, I don’t agree. That was not the case with my kids when seeking colleges. They had college directories, as well as heard of schools/programs through word of mouth. The college directories are not ranked. Then they used each college’s own website to glean more information. They did not come across rankings when they were searching for colleges. So, before they applied and now that they have even graduated college, they are unaware of the official ranking of their colleges (they obviously realize that they went to well regarded schools, well known, and very selective schools or programs).</p>
<p>Please realize that not all of us live in competitive communities where things like college rankings are discussed. I see it discussed a lot on CC but otherwise, not in my experience or my kids’ experiences. But for instance, your member name of “IvyHopeful” implies an interest in rankings and prestige. While one of my kids did go to an Ivy and also to grad school at MIT, she never had a feeling of “I must go to an Ivy”. She went through college directories and had a list of her personal search criteria and given the kind of student she is, she was able to look at many selective colleges, but it never had to be an Ivy at all. She never expressed interest in the idea of “I want to go to an Ivy League school.” There are some Ivies that didn’t even fit her college selection criteria. She even preferred non-Ivies to many of the Ivies. Rank or prestige was not her criteria, even though she was applying to very selective schools for the challenging level of academics that she enjoys.</p>
<p>Nope, Sooz. Your bunch just listened to the “word of mouth” reputation (not “prestige”) and picked a “well-regarded” (not “best”) school based on personal fit. Got it. I completely understand. ;)</p>
<p>
Soozie, have you had their eyesight tested? ;)</p>
<p>My kid did access ranking information from wherever it was available. IMO, it would be impossible not to randomly stumble across a ranking or two doing even a modest amount of college searching be it for a program or school. (I mean you can’t go on USNews to get specific data on FA or programs or racial make-up and NOT see the ranking. It’s right there!) Did my kid always believe it? Nope. Did the ranking override issues of fit or cost? Nope. Not for our family. </p>
<p>We used the tried and true shoe-leather , eyesight, and actual conversations with staff, profs, and students whenever possible but always augmented that with all the published info we could find. For my kid, counting on merit aid that would likely be unavailable as a transfer, she had to get it right the first time. Transfer meant “state school back home” and that was not what she wanted. She couldn’t afford to put blinders on to any information. She just ran it all through her personal filter to see what rang true for her. What made sense to her. Much like I suggest folks do here on our little planet. ;)</p>
<p>coase - LOL, nice one with the old cartoon. Love it. I am sure you realized I was being heavily sarcastic with the Morse comment.</p>
<p>I won’t regurgitate my rants about how all ranking systems are BS. By ranking systems, I mean subjective computations, not tables that simply sort things like average SAT scores. The latter is just data, the former is some relatively arbitrary mashing of information that is A) clearly meaningful to the college experience; B) possibly meaningful; or C) complete nonsense. Then they have the gaul to say one is “best”. Well, tell you what. Want to be an architect? Williamns isn’t best for you, they don’t offer it, or engineering, or journalism, or…Williams also sure isn’t the best for someone that cannot afford it, or someone that really likes to be in a city, or someone that thinks that part of the college experience is attending Div 1 sports games, or someone that wants to live somewhere that has better weather. While those last two might seem trivial to many, this is somewhere the student lives most of the year for 4-5 years in most cases. If they are really unhappy with their environment, or always thinking about what they missed out on, it is hard to see how that is “best” for them. So yes, a large part of my complaint is the way that both USNWR and Forbes market these abominations, but not completely.</p>
<p>In the case of Forbes, the criteria they use are so riduculous on so many levels that it would be laughable if it were not so sad. I understand your feeling that it is better to focus on outputs. But which outputs and how do you measure them? There are tons of students who are not in it for the money, don’t have any desire to be a corporate officer (that one is just bizarre. I guess the scientist who discovered the cure for X is not successful because he is not a corporate officer?), choose highly satisfying if lower paying jobs, so on and so forth. I have priceless memories of my years in college because my school fit me so well. Where’s the data point for that?</p>
<p>In the end, as far as using lists as a jumping off point and general guide, that can be accomplished without the farce of trying to con the public with these rating systems. With the internet, developing personal lists based on what’s important to that student is not that hard. Of course, the data one is looking for should be remotely relevant to the goal of picking a school that is good for that student. I admit that trying to find the citations of alumni in Who’s Who might be a tad more difficult. What a joke.</p>
<p>What I am saying, curm, is that my kids did not come across rankings and never saw USNews (I don’t think they knew it existed). Prestige is not what they were seeking. But the fact is that due to qualifications, they were looking at schools that are selective. Often such schools are known and not so obscure. So, they are aware of course that their schools are known by many people. But they had things they were looking for in a college. Lots of colleges that are likely ranked very high did not interest them as these schools did not meet their selection criteria. (fallenchemist gave an example that Williams doesn’t offer architecture and indeed, D1 was seeking that major and so Williams was not considered) They were not trying to go to the highest ranked school. As I said, D1 knocked an Ivy off her list of acceptances, preferring Smith and Tufts more than the Ivy. But they were seeking challenging schools commensurate with their ability. That was one search criteria. There was never any concepts of “I want an Ivy League school,” or a “top 20 school” or some such. When going through college directories, they sought schools that met their specific criteria, as well as were selective/challenging. It is not like their final selection was “out of all my acceptances, which school is ranked highest? I’ll go to that.” They picked which school really fit them and that they liked the best. What I am saying is that it didn’t have to do with rankings, but yes, level of challenge/selectivity was a criteria as both crave challenge in their academics. They didn’t care how well known the school was but it is simply a fact that many academically selective schools (or in D2’s case, artistically selective BFA in Musical Theater programs) typically are known schools and not that obscure. As I wrote upthread, for instance, for a BFA in MT program, not a single one of the 25 schools on the Forbes list of top 250 that I mentioned I had never heard of before even offer a BFA in MT. It is not an accident that very selective schools are more widely known.</p>
<p>Based on what you are maintaining, curm, I guess my girls are odd, since they never stumbled upon rankings in their college search. </p>
<p>D1 used three big fat college directories. She came up with an initial list of 30 schools and took notes on a spreadsheet. She visited all 30 colleges’ websites. She whittled the list to 10 schools to visit. Visited all ten. Did return visits to favorites for more in depth looks. Applied to 8. Returned to top three after acceptances rolled in and picked one to attend. </p>
<p>For D2, the college rankings, even if she ever saw them and she did not, would be irrelevant to her college search for BFA in MT programs. BFA in MT programs are HIGHLY competitive (acceptance rates are in the single digits, worse than most Ivies). She had theater college directories and went through those. She spent 8 summers at a theater program out of state and had many older friends who went onto college for MT and so had some inkling of names of colleges that offer this (it is a fairly small finite number). She researched a bunch of them to see which met her criteria. She picked out 8 to apply to. She decided to graduate after junior year of high school and so while we thought we’d be visiting schools in junior year like we did with D1, it all got pushed up a year and so she only saw four of her 8 schools before applying and then visited all 8 for on campus auditions.</p>
<p>One of the things my D did was use the free collegeboard resources where you plug in your GPA and test scores and look for schools within some range based solely on that criteria. From that list she could then further define her search fields. </p>
<p>She used USNews in a similar fashion and we would remove from the calculations certain items and then re-rank, as it were. (We may have even re-weighted the data for categories we kept but I can’t remember if that really happened or if we just “eye-balled” it). She did the same for med school, too only this time by a spreadsheet program. It was pretty awesome. ;)</p>
<p>I will say, curm, for the grad school search, D1 did stumble upon rankings that time. She was applying to Architecture School and ordered a publication about arch schools (to learn where these were) from Design Intelligence. That book does include a ranking page. So, she was aware of schools well known in this field. And yes, for grad school, having seen that list, could state that MIT (her school) was ranked #2 that year in that book. But I don’t think either daughter ever has seen USNews or knows the rankings of their UG school. D1 did the whole spreadsheet thing for grad school too. :D</p>
<p>Before anyone forgets, I’ve already given my opinion up-thread that the Forbes rankings are just goofy. </p>
<p>I’ll state now that some USNews categories have a lot less utility to me and I discount them completely. I also believe that the USNews rankings of let’s say #11 and #17 mean absolutely nothing, while #2 and #89 most probably means “something” that needs to be investigated further.</p>
<p>Oh No… Not the Forbes list thing again… Anyone who remotely knows the ranking of schools from other years (and I’m sure they did it again this year) knows that the rankings are, in my humble opinion Bogus…</p>
<p>In my opinion - It’s a smart way to get people to talk about Forbes but its misleading and not helpful to anyone (except the lower ranked schools that suddenly and arbitrarily skyrocket who will be promoting their position on the list). </p>
<p>I felt it was so misleading that I stopped reading Forbes because I figure if they do it on this list, who knows what they are doing on other lists and stories.</p>
<p>The point I made that all sources of finding which schools/program is good even from a word of mouth has implicit ranking. If you have ever talked to me about EECS I would have suggested MIT/Stanford/UCB providing an implicit ranking. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t deny the obsession with good college and I believe that prestige comes with being good. You can’t become Harvard or MIT unless you have solid academics, a wonderful experience and life long prestige.</p>
<p>DD also never expressed an idea of “I want to go to an Ivy” even though all her friends since elementary ended up at HMSPY or UCB/UCLA or rest of Ivies. Now it might be the environment where everyone wanted to do good to begin with but I don’t think there is anything wrong with it because in my feeling every one here at CC belongs to the same category.</p>
<p>POIH:
I agree that prestige often is because the schools are very good! </p>
<p>I was just saying that you thought anyone doing a college search would come across rankings and my kids did not and were not aware of these. </p>
<p>In terms of word of mouth, I mostly meant that some colleges are known widely without even asking around. And yes, often well known colleges are selective and good schools. </p>
<p>As a personal point of reference, D1 went to UG at Brown. Her uncle (my brother) went there. She would have heard of it. We also live in New England. Going to an Ivy from her high school is pretty rare…maybe one kid a year. D2 went to NYU/Tisch. She knew of this school back when she was 12 because her whole life she has wanted to go into musical theater and had many older friends at her summer program who went onto college way before she did and she knew of this school for her field due to that. Back when she was 12, she barely knew any colleges and we never discussed them but she knew this one and we were in NYC one day when she was 12 and walked past NYU and she said, “I hope to go there someday.” However, she did not apply ED as we felt she should explore all the schools out there in her field and visit many before coming back to her long time dream school. She did that and so when she finally went there, we felt she had come full circle and didn’t base the decision based on prestige but rather this school fit what she was seeking in a college, having visited all the others, which she was also happy to attend.</p>
<p>I am curious, however, that you say your D never expressed the idea of “I want to go to an Ivy” and so I wonder how you decided on the member name of “ParentofIvyHopeful”??</p>
<p>This may be the first time ever where I actually agree with POIH, at least for the most part. It may be that your kids never looked at a college ranking - unless you regularly screened their internet browsing history, we will probably never know. But “college directories” and “word of mouth” are both basically just proxies for prestige. Granted, they may not measure prestige among the same group(s) of people as USNews or even Forbes. But they are still rough barometers for the prestige of an institution.</p>
<p>How is a college directory a proxy for prestige? There are hundreds of colleges in the big fat books. Many are not prestigious or selective institutions. For D2, she only used performing arts and theater college directories…these list EVERY program that exists. Many are obscure.</p>
<p>For word of mouth, I simply meant that unless you lived in a cave, certain college names would be known to most educated people. </p>
<p>For my theater kid, there is a small number of colleges that offer a BFA in Musical Theater and so she would have heard of some through those who participate in musical theater, particularly older friends, who in this case, came from all over the country every summer to her program. For someone with a passion for MT, it would be hard to not be familiar with some school/program names as open any Broadway Playbill, and these colleges are mentioned in the actor’s credits. My kid has been to many Bdway shows.</p>
<p>I explained before also that during late elementary and middle DD was too much in to medical school (may be DW influenced) and used to watch Gilmore Girls and really liked Yale. That was her top choice till 10th grade, so when I first came to CC and since Yale was an Ivy so I choose parentOfIvyHope. </p>
<p>What I thought you meant by “I want to go to Ivy” means that the child wants to go there without any criteria. But in case of DD she changed her top choice with her changing interest toward Computer Engineering and after the visit to Yale, it dropped to 5th place, so that’s why I said she was not obsessed with “I want to go to Ivy” because she ended up not applying to Yale, columbia, Brown, and U.Penn.</p>
<p>I agree with noimagination. Both my kids don’t care about college rankings and they take it easy on college application. But I am concerned with college rankings and I have been on CC for 3 years. The rankings by USNWR, Forbes,… and by ranking threads posted on CC by parents, students give me some perspectives to look further.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A lot of people like me don’t know anything about Swarthmore, Williams, Reed, … before joining CC or college admission circles.</p>
<p>I think the whole concept of “I want to go to an Ivy” is odd. I TOTALLY get “I want to go to a great college” concept – and then within the list of top colleges, you stratify further based on your specific preferences of size, urban / rural, specific programs, overall fit, etc. But just to isolate those 8 out of the world of top schools and have that as your goal – just getting into 1 of those particular 8 – is very, very foreign to me.</p>
<p>Do you mean educated or do you mean economically successful? Because I think CC often seems to overlook or forget the existence of the many, many people who became quite successful with “just” average state flagship or worse educations – through skill in sales, entrepreneurialship, running family businesses, etc. I’m quite sure in my neck of the woods I could find plenty of very economically successful people who really had no desire to go to top schools nor to send their kids to top schools, and see the purpose of college very, very differently. They wouldn’t know Williams or Swarthmore or Reed from a hole in the head.</p>
I can’t comment specifically without knowing about the exact lists used, but do they offer nothing but the school name? In other words, did D1 choose her 30 schools from the books based solely on their name and location, or did she read descriptions or ratings within the books?