Foreign language certification in lieu of AP exam

Parents Forum
41

I’m sympathetic to OP/OP’s kid’s dilemma.

I think learning HS French/Spanish/German is of low value to many kids, especially if the kid knows some other 2nd language (i.e. Greek).

And, depending on the class structure of the MS/HS, taking a language can really bite into schedule flexibility. If kid is at a 7 class HS, and takes the big 4 (English, History, Math, Science) + Music + likely at least 1/2 time P/E, that’s 5.5 out of 7 classes, perhaps for all 4 years (except maybe the P/E). Add a foreign language, and there is virtually no space left in the schedule to explore other options. And I think exploring is useful, both for thinking about careers (Engineering, Health Sciences, etc.), and for life-learning (classes that are sometimes looked down on, but useful, like shop, foods/cooking, business/accounting, art, etc.).

OP has a better picture of kid’s interests and likely college goals than we do. But, if I were in OP’s shoes, I might be both reading admissions-page information on target college’s websites, and reaching out to admission officers (if possible), or HS guidance counselor, to find out how important an “official” HS language (Spanish or whatever is), and/or how the Greek fluency might be viewed. I think, depending on the specific college and likely path (STEM or humanities or whatever), OP’s kid might be ok without Spanish, but yes, perhaps some sort of “seal of approval” (not AP of course) for the Greek fluency might be useful.

If I understand correctly, many heritage/native Spanish and Mandarin speakers do study those languages and/or take the AP test in HS. It’s unfortunate for OP’s kid that modern Greek is much more obscure, not an AP, etc. But if the time is well spent, skipping Spanish for a broader range of HS classes might be both good for OP’s kid, and acceptable even to high end colleges. But I don’t know - I’m just a random CC poster - OP should research him/herself.

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42

I feel like every since person in this thread is trying to correct you, and telling you that you are incorrect, and you are not listening.

Elite colleges want to see 4 years of high school language IN HIGH SCHOOL, if at all possible.

Sometimes that isn’t possible… some kids go to cash-strapped inner city or rural high schools that don’t offer anything except Spanish I, which is taught by the Football coach who went to Tijuana in college once. And not all colleges are elite: they just want to see that your kid has a high school diploma. So you will hear conflicting advice on this.

But if you are positioning your child for an elite school, then yes. Everyone is being very clear. Sign up for French or Spanish in 8th grade, and continue it through 12th.

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43

The feeling is not universal - see my post (admittedly made at almost the same time as yours.)

44

But you admit that you don’t actually know the answer to OP’s question, and you’re just kinda spitballing.

45

I cannot think of a single business-related or adjacent field where some experience all the way up to fluency in foreign languages (one or more) is a negative.

The medical, academia, etc. folks can weigh in on their own fields. But it mine, it is never a negative and always a plus.

“I think learning HS French/Spanish/German is of low value to many kids”. Guess what- brushing and flossing is of low value to many kids. Wearing seat belts is of low value to many kids. Parental controls on devices to keep them from viewing porn or connecting with predators is low value to many kids.

That’s why in most cases, kids aren’t calling the shots at 7th grade. Kids think learning German is a waste of time, until they lose out on a promotion at work to someone who DOES speak German, because the corporate offices are in Munich and even though the international language of business is English, it is SUPER convenient to have another German speaker on staff in the office in Richmond VA or Southfield MI. Super convenient.

French is a TOTAL waste of time except when the job you want requires some language competency in French. Etc.

I’m not ready to let the 7th and 8th grade kids determine what’s “important” for their education. But more power to MWDad if he’s ready to do that. Why not toss algebra while you’re at it?

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46

Sure, but I think so are others here.

Here’s the recommendations page for WUSTL (highly selective college that 2 of my 3 attend(ed))

Basically recommends (but does not require) 2 years of the same language, from 9th grade on.

Here’s Mizzou (Less selective - our state flagship):

Also wants 2 years, although less than that falls to comprehensive review, so it’s not a hard requirement.

If those are the kinds of schools OP’s kid is interested in (say, reach & safety), then somehow getting “Greek” stamped on the HS transcript for 2 years would be helpful, or Spanish/French/German in the alternative. I think it’s an outdated requirement/recommendation from the colleges, but so be it.

And if kid has an 8/9/10+ class system in HS (on rotation), or even 7 classes but won’t take/stick with music/fine arts to any deep degree, then there’s more schedule room in any case. But for a tight schedule, and broad interests, I wouldn’t necessarily waste 4 years in Spanish class if OP’s kid otherwise has little interest.

47

Key words: “if all all possible.”
My kids’ HS only offers one language which is Spanish for 3 years and no AP.
For the last two years at my kids school, there are people who get into T30 schools who had only two years of Spanish. YMMV.

48

Presumably the guidance counselors point out the limitations on language study at your HS, no?

Do we know that OP’s HS does not offer four years of ANY language-- just because they don’t teach Greek?

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49

But I think the issue is that it is not the big four, but the big five as foreign language is often viewed as a core course, not as an “extra.”

And that’s the problem, in my opinion: many people see it as an “extra” with no use or relevance. No one seems to view math or science or history in quite the same way that they view foreign language.

And yet foreign language knowledge can be incredibly useful - probably more useful to most students than, say, calculus or even physics. And not only can it be useful personally, but also professionally depending on job and location and local demographics. In addition, learning a language teaches logical thinking and analysis (critical for learning a new grammatical system) and, in that sense, probably has more in common with mathematical thinking than many appreciate. And then there is the learning about culture and history - which can rival many social studies classes.

I never cease to be disappointed by the low regard a lot of people hold of language learning in this country. And I think that also influences how many students view it - as an unwanted and unchosen elective, rather than a core component of a basic education, just as algebra and physics and world history are.

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50

Knowing more things is better than knowing less. A programmer kid knows COBOL? Great! But the odds it’s relevant in their career are tiny, and wasting a limited amount of time studying COBOL would be silly.

We live in an English speaking, English-focused world. English is the main language of international business, the internet, and global culture. Is it cute to be able to order in French on that one trip you make to Paris? Sure. Is it worth 4-6 years of study in MS/HS to get that? Personally, I don’t think so. That’s roughly 1/7th of ALL the space a kid has in MS/HS to learn things in school.

And yeah, a kid can take French for just 2 years (and I recommend it, above, as a possible way of satisfying admissions committees). But, unless you’re a language virtuoso, 2 years of French is not going to get you to a meaningful degree of comprehension/fluency, and you’ll forget most of it by the time you’re in your mid-20s.

Of course, there are individual exceptions (and there are COBOL programmers out there, too!) And if the kid knows that their life path likely involves significant usage of a specific foreign language, sure, work towards that. But OP’s kid already knows Greek, so has the general concept of how other languages differ from English. The specific application of learning French or Spanish or whatever, is, statistically (IN MY OPINION) unlikely to be as valuable to OP’s kid as other good uses of that time in MS/HS.

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51

I don’t think so about pointing out the deficit in curriculum. The only standard verbiage on school report is the school doesn’t rank, and does not offer AP classes.

May be there exists some database of HS which shows what the curriculum is being offered.

52

I can’t tell if you’re debating me… clearly, OP’s kid’s district offers high school language classes up to AP. It is possible to take 4 years of language.

Or if you’re agreeing with me. Because, yes, it is possible to get into an elite school without 4 years of language. But colleges want to see you taking foreign language if your school offers it. Which OP’s kid’s school does.

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53

OP’s kid already knows a foreign language (possibly rather better than the typical HS kid learns French or Spanish or whatever). So the sort of alternative way of thinking in a foreign language (grammar, vocabulary, culture) is already ingrained, and probably from a point of view further away from the norm (i.e. Modern Greek vs. French) than most kids get. Spending 6 years learning French for cocktail party chatter or maybe that one study abroad semester is not, IMO, maximally useful, on average.

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54

She should start Spanish, because it’s very easy, and very useful in the US. In fact, she could do a first year Spanish class either at high school summer school or at your local community college or 4 yr state college this summer, to get a jump on it, if she likes. My district allows students to go to the high school for first period if they’ve outstripped the middle school level in various subjects - will yours allow that? She will need at least 3, preferably 4 years of foreign language study in high school for selective colleges. Having Greek as a heritage language is not going to fulfill this requirement.

If you can possibly arrange for her to do the engineering class also, by not taking a lunch or a study hall, that would be a good idea, since it’s to her advantage to have exposure to another discipline before high school, where the grades count for college.

55

Not a debate.
Just pointing out there are many many views and anecdotal experiences on this and I don’t prescribe any one in particular.

56

I wasn’t speaking specifically of the OP’s kid, but rather making a general observation about common attitudes I’ve seen in the US.

57

…but it’s the same view I said.

Me: Schools want to see 4 years of foreign language if the high school offers it (literally putting the if in caps, to make it hard to miss). Not all schools do, of course.
You: My school doesn’t! Kids still get into college!
Me: …yes. That’s what I said.

But I’m glad we’re on the same page.

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58

So personally, I think you need to be very careful here. If she does dual enrollment in Greek in addition to a full HS schedule, she is actually adding to any time management issues she might have. And if she is doing that just so she can do Greek instead of something like Latin, I think she may be overestimating the degree to which that will lead to a transcript that looks better.

I do understand she is worried about not being good at a new language, but it seems to me you are in a great position to find out now, before the grades actually matter. If she can take Latin in 8th grade, maybe try that out. If not, any Romance language might be fine too for starting Latin in HS, or continuing that language as she prefers.

And if she absolutely hates it and is terrible at it in 8th grade, OK, maybe doing Greek classes outside of her normal HS schedule is her best choice. But maybe she actually likes it! Or maybe she doesn’t love it, but finds it pretty easy. And in that case, that path is very likely the easier one in HS too, not trying to add dual enrollment classes to an already packed schedule.

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59

8th grade is not high school. Let her take the elective she wants.

She can take Spanish 1 or Latin 1 or ASL 1 or another language offered by her high school in 9th grade. She can take level 2 in 10th, and then in 11th when college is closer make a decision. She can decide to take level 3 in 11th. Alternately, she can decide that she is done with foreign language and that she will not apply to colleges requiring more than two years of high school level foreign language. If she takes level 3, for 12th grade she again has the option of level 4 or stopping with level 3.

If she is really opposed to learning one of the languages offered at her high school, spend the next year researching alternatives. A for-credit summer Greek program? DE classes in a language that interests her? Be aware that these are likely to be more intense than high school-level language classes.

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60

Please bring the discussion back to the OP. The debate over the value of foreign language, the quality of FL instruction is not the question posed. Thank you for your understanding.