Use it or lose it. Learning a foreign language is excellent for understanding how language works but becoming fluent when one has no reason to use a language is not useful. I learned the nomenclature for parts of speech with HS French, fortunately my Honors English class never wasted time on labels beyond the basics (excellent usage does not need knowing the three word phrase describing the tense/whatever- I suspect the elite U English prof from my HS classes would agree).
It is a lot more meaningful for Europeans to speak other languages since they have the opportunity to use them. I disagree with any attempts to make Spanish compulsory, btw- there are so many other languages spoken by immigrants to the US and the Spanish speakers need English to communicate with others.
It is excellent for colleges/universities to require a foreign language for admission and to recommend four years’ worth. As above, it enhances one’s understanding of language, regardless of one’s future major. Accepting the time spent without any tests on ability allows students to not strive for fluency where using the language is not at all practical. I do see it a shame too many students concentrate on Spanish instead of other European languages with a richer history of literature. Please, do not ask those fluent in three languages (and alphabets- think India) to learn yet another language to accommodate those who won’t learn English in the US.
re post #19. Decades ago my experience visiting French Canada was that the French speakers were not always bilingual- they skimped on learning English. In today’s world I suspect more English is learned (not just taught as always was done) because of globalization. Those from other countries needed the second language while locals did not.
I’d disagree here. Yes, one can (maybe) argue that French or Russian literature is “richer” than the Spanish literature of the Iberian peninsula, but it’s harder to argue that when you add in Latin American literature, with the possible exception of drama. Plus for the cinephile, the Spanish-spoken film industry is one of the best, IMO. But, at the end of the day, I’m a firm believer in choosing a foreign language that aligns with personal/professional interests, whatever they may be.
Don’t forget German lit. My problem is that people are learning languages not to be able to read the literature in its original but to speak with those who don’t know English basics. Northern European cultures interest me more than those of Spanish origin- just a preference, nothing better/worse about it. Historically other languages have contributed to our language and literature enough that knowing French has enhanced my experience while Spanish has not.
Agree that the problem with FL is like the problem with the first gens and lower SES kids trying to get into college. It’s got to start before HS to be effective. There needs to be more immersion opportunities for K-8 and there are plenty of teachers available for Spanish and Mandarin. My children attended a Spanish Immersion elementary school which not only covers the FL aspect but most likely boosted their English abilities as well.
@wis75 your point about Europe is really important. Where multilingualism is compelled, there will be outlets and support for speaking multiple languages, translation, etc… Since the EU (and places like Switzerland) legally mandate multilingualism, there is a “market” for speaking multiple languages. My city in the US is extremely multilingual and, in my old neighborhood, I could have spoken French every day, along with Spanish and Creole. Without a mandate making it so that public discourse needs to be multilingual, it’s very hard to create a market for it, though.
@JHS I follow the British situation and I would not agree that UK university students come out better than their US counterparts. They have a huge crisis there, too, and it’s been just as easy to import EU multilinguals to fill those roles. I’ve heard it’s been a huge problem in gaining positions within the EU. Maybe one reason for Brexit? If you can’t even get your students internships and jobs with the EU, I can imagine that creates a cultural disconnect. Listen to the Brexit debates and how prominently the Erasmus program figures into it (student exchange).
Why would someone want/need to immerse themselves in a culture they will not see again if it means giving up other education? The time spent doing that takes them away from the other cultures they could be absorbing a lot from. In the US the Spanish cultures are not highly educated groups- students will not usually be learning literature but rather basics. The well educated US immigrants tend to immerse themselves in English.
Regarding England. We spent a week this past summer in London and had east European male housekeeping staff that spoke little English. Those young guys were terrible at the basics- forgetting to replace towels, teas, glasses. Life must be really tough at home to go abroad for those jobs. Hotel owned by foreigners (Arab), btw.
This thread pushes buttons. Many varied backgrounds equally valid- pushing current in vogue ones not best (while past practices no better either). Time for Vive la difference! btw- who cares that one’s ancestors are more than first generation- such as xth instate generation or came over on the Mayflower or whose ancestor was famous Y? Immigrants have made this country. Too many resting on past generations’ work and not doing anything.
At the risk of mixing cultural metaphors, this has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. The OP asked a valid question about preparing HS students for college admissions. Let’s not get this thread shut down by going astray.
I’ve shared before that our high school did not require foreign language for graduation; classes in engineering or computers could be substituted.
Even though my spouse is fluent in 3 languages, my kids took the minimum number of foreign language classes required for college during the summer. One of our state schools accepts the engineering/computer classes instead of a foreign language, so it’s possible to get through college with no foreign language instruction at all.
I have mixed feelings about it. I used to believe foreign language study was imperative to a well-rounded education, but there are so many more areas of study now compared to when I went to school. Should computer programming be considered a foreign language? Maybe not, but I’d argue that programming skills are becoming increasingly valuable in many fields.
“With the exception of English, which is almost universally a 4 year HS graduation requirement, in almost all cases, top colleges “suggestions” for HS preparation exceed HS graduation requirements.”
NOT TRUE in my state. Students are only required to have 2 years of Foreign Language. This can be substituted with 2 years of advanced technology education or successful completion of a state-approved career and tech program. In addition to English, they are required to enroll in math all 4 years (they don’t all have to be full-year classes, but they need 3 credits of math overall). State flagship school mimics these HS requirements. Private schools encourage 3 years.
Foreign language requirements are usually for BA degrees and liberal arts colleges. Many BS degrees do not have a foreign language requirement. Many schools have general education requirements that call for a foreign language, but allow other classes to be substituted. In fact it’s a question we ask on college tours, as my son feels very strongly about it.
The UK high school system can become quite focused by a-levels, often at the expense of languages. I remember a (high level) discussion about the disadvantage the British were at negotiating in the EU, mainly because they had to send people who had majored in languages at college into the EU structures, given the requirement to converse. By contrast, Europeans generally speak a few languages anyway, so they could send people who were actually trained in the various areas under negotiation/where policy-making was happening, etc.
When I visited Quebec, I was told by a number of people I’d be fine with English in Montreal, but would probably struggle without French elsewhere.
Anyway this is straying a bit far from the original topic which is that there is a language requirement/recommendation that many seem unaware of. Whether or not it’s “enough” should probably be a different thread?
@chercheur I have mixed feelings, too. Our foreign language education in the US is so bad and the teacher cert process so ridiculous that I really feel like the resources could be spent better elsewhere. At the college level, without those required gut elementary courses you can’t sustain a foreign language department of any size, though, so I feel differently about higher education than HS. If you want the literature, you have to have required courses being paid for. It’s hard. You can travel 3000 miles in the US and only hear English. There is zero incentive to learn foreign languages with learning Spanish being marginally more helpful to people.
I’m flabbergasted that anyone would suggest that people without English proficiency working low-wage jobs are low-skilled. Often they are very highly educated, just not in the US - doctors, lawyers, university students, etc.
I am a literature person. A good deal of the reading I do for pleasure is in Spanish or French (and sometimes Italian and Catalan). Language competency is important to me. But it hasn’t been important to my kids at all (or my wife). My daughter had a lot of interest in it initially. She studied both Latin and French; in 10th grade, she was reading Baudelaire, Camus, and a French translation of Milan Kundera’s The Unbearable Lightness of Being on her own. But her interest in French was brutally snuffed out by year after year of deadly dull, deadly slow intermediate language study.
I lucked out – I never had to take Level III of anything.
@wis75 I have to say I agree with @skieurope. The French definitely won the Literature Superbowl in the 18th and 19th Centuries, and they still have their moments, but Spanish-language literature from the past century has lapped the European field a couple of times. Spanish literature from the Middle Ages through the Renaissance ain’t too shabby, either. I agree that there’s lots to love in German and Russian literature, too, and Scandinavian literature as well. I also recently fell in love with the medieval sagas of Iceland – I really wish I could read Old Islandic!
My kids’ best friends’ nanny was a lawyer in South America. Many of the Hispanic guys I work with don’t have a lot of education, but they are smart.
I had decent French instruction in high school - all my teachers were native speakers. My kids took Latin - the older went on to AP Latin with a very good teacher. Younger son started all over in college with Arabic and found for him immersion was the key for him to learning a language.
In NY the Advanced Regents requirements call for 3 years of a foreign language and passing the Regent’s Exam. That’s enough to get them into most colleges.