Former Marine applying for GS

bred.to.please · December 29, 2008, 10:23pm

Thanks, moviestarr2 and Denzera, both your answers are detailed and really helpful.

Denzera, your fourth point was definitely something I needed. I was starting to look at other colleges of similar stature before I realized that I wasn’t going to avoid that mindset regardless of where I applied. If anything, maybe I should be proud that my life is such a contentious topic. I guess Columbia could just be a continuance of my standard of being adored by one half and despised by the other. ;)

Denzera · December 30, 2008, 3:29am

you’ve chosen to frame the conflict in your own mind as the above, and seem quite fixed in that view. But an alternative viewpoint would be that you are applying to an institution of higher learning, whose mission is to educate the best students they can find. To call their instruction methods, or those of the high schools whose records they evalute, “learning by rote”, is at best doing a severe disservice and at worst being downright condescending.

Since you seek to join such a community, perhaps you should first buy into the idea that there is some sense and rationality behind why they would evaluate potential students first and foremost upon those potential students’ academic records.

Now, “substantive life experience” counts for a lot more at other stages. For example, your leadership experience in the military will be tremendously attractive to a number of prospective employers (McKinsey perhaps most notorious among them in their selectiveness for ‘leadership’ above all else). Business schools will love you, once you’ve had a real job for a few years (or even if you return to the military). But that is very different from applying to an undergraduate program.

that definitely seems to be something you relish - attention in any form.

sorghum · December 30, 2008, 7:40am

Well, at risk of being accused of being harsh whatever I say, here I am again.

In my opinion this sort of thing represents a problem: “I received it for repairing international communications with our base in Japan from the Philippines after a landslide disrupted our communications systems.”

Columbia GS has a long history of taking ex-military (and not just US military). You will be up against every other military applicant. How do you stand out? Mostly by spending 5 years in this dangerous era without, apparently, any combat experience. A girl who drove trucks in Iraq, and maybe did well enough at it to get some leadership role, is going to come across better than a marine who didn’t fight. Maybe you did, and you are too modest to tell us - if so all credit to you and your admission is more likely.

If you couch it in terms of 5 years working experience, fine, then you are up against other people with 5 years interesting experience. Then to compete you need academic credentials.

What is your plan for:

GED - do you have it? If not, do it.

SAT reasoning test - when? How are you preparing?
SAT 2 tests - what subjects and when?

AP tests - only once a year you know, but a good score in English language and say Spanish would look good. Maybe buy a couple of books and take a history subject too.

CC courses - one semester of courses is not much on top of your high school record. Better take care of course selection (not 5 courses in journalism and argumentation) to cover core HS material. Get very good grades - that’s not going to be easy.

If you apply 11/2009 you could have 12 months CC courses done by the time they consider the app, and be in a current semester by April 2010.

About the essay - talk about yourself, personal, anecdotal. Just show some good writing. The really don’t need your views on the educational system at this stage.

Those guys that say yeah, yeah you are a great candidate - now - are not helping you.

bulletandpima · December 30, 2008, 9:15am

Look, the reality is when you basically ask a chance me, some people will say yes and some will say no. Both will have their mostly valid points, which can be anecdotal or true life experience. Don’t ask if you don’t want to hear the bad. The old cliche about never give an ultimatimum unless you are willing to accept both is true in this situation.

I have said where I fall on this side. I believe it is commendable and admirable for your service…we do not have enough people who do this and I thank you for that. AS a military spouse of a retired AF officer I get what you sacrificed. Yet, lets call it for what it was, you joined for an escape route, and it changed you for the better. However, you can’t frame it as a reason to take you over somebody else, do you know if there is somebody from Watts, CAlifornia who served in Iraq and saw their best friend lose a leg in battle applying? Or how about a person who was in the bloods and managed to get out? There are alot of unique stories…one comes to mind of the girl from NY(Elizabeth Murray) who was homeless and had a mom that died from AIDS, she was accepted to Harvard. Do Ivies make exceptions, of course they do, but the word means not the normal rule. You are trying to come in on the exception rule and not the norm.

The circumstances have to be incredible and that is why the essay means so much for certain schools. face it, if they were just looking at writing skills they would just take the SAT WR. They are looking to see why you over the other 19K students.

Life experience means something, but it is not going to give you an acceptance letter. I hope it comes, just realize that many people feel your life experience does not rise to the level to give you a pass.

Out of curiosity, as you were never in combat, and I know for a fact that the military will give you TA while on AD, why didn’t you go to school on post? From what I am reading you never took courses during your AD…please don’t tell me about TDY as the resaon, DH (Bullet) got his Masters on deployment b4 the days of internet…every military installation has colleges (UMD, Webster, TRoy, LaVerne, Embry, etc) with classes given at night, weekends and on-line. They are there for military members and are very giving on time lines b/c they understand deployments. You should have at least tried to have some college courses under yout belt. I know you went to under developed countries, but Haiti, Turkey and Saudi in the 90s weren’t exactly metropolitan areas either.

moviestarrr2 · December 30, 2008, 9:17am

Denzera-There are a few programs Oxy has. Here is one: [Occidental</a> College Physics Department - 3-2 Engineering General Information](<a href=“http://www.departments.oxy.edu/physics/3-2.htm]Occidental”>http://www.departments.oxy.edu/physics/3-2.htm)

Oxy is affiliated with CC as noted here: [Affiliated</a> Liberal Arts Colleges and Universities | Columbia University Office of Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/engineering/combined/affils.php]Affiliated”>http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/engineering/combined/affils.php)

I don’t know what program or field of study Obama was in but I’ve heard there are several students who transfer to Columbia after 2 years at Oxy. However, even if Obama didn’t initially enroll at Oxy with the intention on transferring, my point was that he was never a student of GS. It was CC.

Sorghum-Bred already answered in another post that he received his GED.

Bred.- I don’t pretend to know all the reasons admissions selects the candidates they do. All I can compare against is my own background having been accepted. Based upon that analysis, if I can do it then so can you. As I stated above, I’m glad I didn’t post on here before I applied because many people like to criticize, speak negatively and hinder you from your blessings. I don’t believe that my work history or the accomplishments I’ve made are any more outstanding than the next person. It’s just MY life. Maybe I am modest? Sure, I’ve had some interesting jobs, traveled and have done some things that many people my age haven’t done and/or will never do. But there are also a million other people who HAVE done the same things I have? So yes, your history is military but only you have the background story/life that you have. All those “other” military people you may be up against aren’t you.

Speak with admissions and take their advice. I was not accepted the first time I applied. I completed ONE semester of classes and re-applied the very next semester and voila. I took an English, Math, History & Sociology class so I did try to mimic a liberal program. I am not saying it will work out for everyone the way it has for me but I definitely will not tell you that you have to build up this laundry list of credentials. You already have a great story- a great background for a NON-traditional student. Therefore, with good grades at the college level (only thing you’re missing), you’re a candidate. In comparison with myself, my HS grades were good but my college was so/so. When I applied myself-was great but then there were times I didn’t attend class and my grades suffered as such. There are 5 people on the committee and I’m sure 5 different points of view. If they have questions, they’ll interview you. That’s what they did with me. Your application will be reviewed from every angle/perspective.

Denzera · December 30, 2008, 10:37am

Sorghum,

I frankly can’t see how you’ve arrived at your position that for a marine to be maximally qualified to join an educational establishment, he must fight as opposed to perform in a support role. He’s not applying to be a wrestler on the WWE. His thinking - and proof thereof - is going to figure a lot more. I’m not an admissions officer but I think that just stands to reason.

sorghum · December 30, 2008, 10:53am

I agree with you Denzera, in principle, but that’s how I think committees will think.

bulletandpima · December 30, 2008, 11:05am

Okay Denz, I see your point, but …

Columbia can only take 1 of the 2. Do they take the girl with similiar inner city background and grades, who was in Iraq with bombs exploding around her, living for a yr in a tent with only latrines, using baby wipes as her method of cleaning the sand off of her face. She gets aa Bronze star with Valor he has a JSM (ranks lower). Should they take him, who at the end of the day he sleeps in an apt. Granted he did do TDYS to very incredible places, but I think her stress level was higher and thus the admission office would see that she can handle herself in the most difficult situation.

I understand that is not the WWE, but if you have ever lived in a combat situation where you must don chem gear in less than a minute in 120 degree weather, watch incoming artillery come over your head with only a tent as your protection for a year you would never believe the 2 are comparable.

Again I am not saying Bred doesn’t deserve the spot to Columbia for how the military changed his life. I am just stating nobody knows who the competition is, as far as life experience being stationed in Japan and Manhattan (I don’t see the equivalent hardship) you still get email without the fear the server is down, you still have a cell, you can go out to bars or shopping when not deployed…it is just not comparable. To frame your military experience as a reason is not enough. We have had millions of service members in the Sandbox, that left thinking it was for 6 mos, and only to come back 18 mos later. If I were in admissions and read about how a person became stronger because they saw the atrocites of war 1st hand…I would chose them. If you are going to use it as a hook, then it needs to beat out everybody else using the same subject as their hook.

Personally, I would think his experience in journalism will open the door for him…not his military experience, nor his life experience. Realistically, if Bred is applying for journalism than his essay will be the make or break…nothing else. The journalism dept is either going to say it was OMG out of this world, let’s not worry about the grades as much or they going to say it was good, maybe great, but I am not sure he can handle the course load.

LUKEJDAVIS · December 30, 2008, 11:06am

With Columbia’s deep roots in Journalism and GS’s acceptance history with GI’s I would think it is worth it to apply.

bred.to.please · December 30, 2008, 11:31am

Wow. I’ve made a mess, haven’t I? ;)

First, I’d like to apologize if my earlier post seemed condescending. It was a moment of weakness and I became defensive (read: abrasive).

I guess my main point was that there are always several ways to do things, and it bothered me that students who excelled in their respective school districts assumed that the quality of education was the same in neighborhoods of all socioeconomic circumstances. (Sometimes, relying on the establishment to teach you can be at best, a hindrance, and at worse, a concerted effort on the part of that establishment to ensure that your conditions remain endemic to the boundaries of your ghetto.)

I think there are a wide variety of experiences applicants will be able to write about, and some may appear more substantial than others, but I would hope what matters equally is what one takes in from those experiences. My military career in itself is not what I feel makes my story unique, but instead its relevance to me as, just like someone said, an escape route.

What I’m trying to say, I guess, is that as a military journalist, I reached a point through a combination of introspection and observation wherein I recognized the root of my own sense of worthlessness. It was then that I determined to not only change myself, but also to become the catalyst for others to do the same. I grew up beneath the poverty line with all the effects of that environment being a factor in my life – I don’t think my military experience in itself is a comparable experience, save for the purpose it served for me personally.

Also, somebody asked, but the southern Philippines extends as a front on Operation Enduring Freedom and houses its own (active) al-Quaeda operation. There were hostile forces in the area and fire was exchanged, though it was nowhere near as grand in scale as Iraq and Afghanistan. I don’t know many enlisted Marines who are afforded the luxury of staying in an apartment while deployed anywhere outside of band members – and even most of them have done tours in combat zones.

bulletandpima · December 30, 2008, 12:02pm

Okay Bred…

A. I agree socio economic factors make a difference in education…it is not alll about the teachers, many times the grades are lower b/c parents are doing everything to put food on the table and a roof over their kids head…they can’t afford to stay at home and help the child with hw, they need to work.
B. I think that you are to be admired about how the military changed your life.

C.Bull FLAG…please…please…don’t lower yourself to the defense that JAPAN was in any hostile force sit. If Japan was being shot at from Iraq…don’t you think that would have been a news story? You stated you were in JAPAN…you lived there…I am pretty sure you were in quarters, that looked like an appt, not a tent with a latrine 30 ft away. 
Nobody not even the AF when stationed in any OEF/OIF live in appts…they live in tents and trailers. When DH did backfill…keyword BACKFILL for OEF and was stationed in Korea…he lived in the q’s. When he went to NorthernWatch it was a tent, Southern Watch it was a tent, the Green Zone it was a tent. The reality is you and I both know anybody would kill to have a tour in Manhattan…it is a coup de’tat. Call your career like it was…people who have had to kiss goodby military memebers over and over again to dangerous zones can truly be offended by those who try to inflate their situation. You did not have a typical Marine career for only spending 5 yrs.

bred.to.please · December 30, 2008, 12:09pm

bulletandpima,

I was not trying to imply that I was at war or anything like that. I was actually pointing out the opposite – that while certain parts of the Philippines are considered hostile (hence why we get combat pay in those areas) that they are “nowhere near as grand in scale as Iraq and Afghanistan.” Also, I respect what you’ve been through as a military spouse, but it seems to me as though you’re making arguments that are out of your scope.

Also, why do you keep saying Japan? We deployed. Sometimes for six months at a time, as I had to the Philippines as part of an advisory role in counter-terrorism efforts for OEF. There weren’t apartments where we operated. We slept in makeshift squad bays in abandoned buildings.

[Operation</a> Enduring Freedom - Philippines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom_-_Philippines]Operation”>Operation Enduring Freedom – Philippines - Wikipedia)

And finally, as a journalist, I have to add: the media covers what the media wants to cover. Just because you didn’t catch it on television doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

bulletandpima · December 30, 2008, 1:49pm

Okay here is why I keep saying Japan

Notice you say HUMANITARIAN AND DISASTER RELIEF

I think you may think I can’t read through the lines…but you could not be farther off…you are now showing holes in a story where BS flags get raised.

1st…

…yet, you were an E-3… nowhere near any level that your commander was going to listen to your experience on counter-terrorism or even have you on the advisory panel…BE an E-7, yes, not E-3…our cousin who graduated with JROTC walked into the Army as an E-4…he was the driver for the Col. in Korea. DH retired as an O-5, they had stand up meetings every Tuesday in Iraq, the lowest ranking enlisted personnel was an E-6.

2nd…

…you have enough experience to be in an advisory position in a COMBAT ZONE, but your specialty is a journalist.

3rd…

…so is it disaster or is it counter-terrorism or is it journalism or is it IT?

Do I agree that you will only read, hear or see what the media wants, absolutely. I positively will not argue that point. I am only arguing the pt that what you may feel makes you have distinction is your shade of gray. You are cherry picking on how you respond to questions posed. You may feel no need to answer the difficult ones, but what if I sat on the admissions interview board and asked well why didn’t you take classes for the last 2 yrs at a community college here in NYC? The military would have pd for it? Why are you waiting to just right now to attend community college?

The admissions office will listen and hear what you say…Too busy to not give it my full attention is not a good answer when you trying to enter an IVY and going out against those kids with the perfect SAT score, and Crew Capt, Pres of NHS, SR Class Treasurer…and it is not good enough to go up agianst the Elizabeth Murrays of the world that are getting in because of their life experience.

moviestarrr2 · December 30, 2008, 1:50pm

I don’t know how the board went off into all these tangents. From your initial post: “That being said, despite the assurances of the dean of admissions and Columbia military veterans, I’ve become pretty disconcerted after reading a lot on these boards about GPAs and high school scores.”

My advice to that is to not look to these boards for advice on acceptance. You’ve already heard from the horses’ mouth all you need to know! You can’t get any better than the Dean and/or Columbia military veterans? Do what THEY said.

Also from your initial post: I was hoping some of you could shine some light for me on writing a statement of purpose as part of my application to the School of General Studies and also what you think my chances might be getting in.

My response to that is what I said before. Don’t over-think it. From your later post: “The major focus I’m working toward in my essay is how specific experiences molded my early understanding of the educational system’s failures (exacerbated by the various factors that plague low-income neighborhoods).” -- this sounds like the makings of a successful essay in regards to purpose. It will serve as an explanation of your earlier academic performance as well. The career is a sidebar if you focus your essay on this. No where on this board did I gather you were trying to use your military experience as a way to stand out from other applicants. So I’m not sure where that came from?

Lastly, in regards to your initial question of your chances for getting in, my opinion, you’re a candidate with a very non-traditional past. You are a candidate with some military experience (which GS seems to like according to many on this board). Therefore, get some college courses under your belt and get as many A’s as you can to present yourself as a candidate that is also serious about education. Good luck-

moviestarrr2 · December 30, 2008, 2:15pm

And -bulletandpima- does have a point in regards to the last two years of being in NYC and not going to school. I’ve been out of college for 8 years, however, I didn’t have anyone that would have paid for it either. So my neglect was due to the fact that I was working and traveling and really didn’t have time to go to school. That might be something you want to touch upon in your essay. Maybe you just now got serious about it? That’s ok too, just do a good job in your essay explaining your stance and why you feel you’re a qualified candidate. The reasons why you’re a good candidate is what will make you stand out amongst your peers who are also applying. Again-good luck.

bulletandpima · December 30, 2008, 2:18pm

I also want to say…for myself, I am someone who will always be the devils advocate, b/c IMHO it is better to see the negative and where you can fix it to make it a positive than to say you look like it is a fit.

This is why I read deeper into the statement.

Only Bred can tell us what that meeting meant…I have met CEOs that state you should come and work for us…does that mean they gave me their business card and expected me to show up at personnel on the following Monday? Does it mean that I was hired? Of course not! He might have had a very simple conversation in a social aspect and the Dean said: well, we have a great journalism dept and you should apply to our school. It in no way, shape or form, means that the dean or any alum has said you are in.

If Bred has the business card for Curtis Rodgers and the cards of the other alums…I would say pack your bags, and start buying the books! Definetely call them up and gently remind them of the meeting and how they felt you should be a great fit. if it is that at an event he was there and had a 5 min. conversation with these people, than you need a course on corporate courtesy, b/c 10 mins. after the conversation was over none of them will remember what they said to Bred, nor what his name was, what he looked like, what he did and when he was planning on applying. The latter is called polite conversation. Do you expect the Dean to laugh in a potential students face about their chance of getting in? Instead, what goes in their mind cha-ching is one more applying, which lowers are acceptances rates and makes us more desirable and I can prove that I am raising the stds.

I truly don’t mean to be mean…I have 3 friends who had children apply, only 1 got in and that was after wait listed. He was a legacy, from both parents (1 was Law, 1 grad), had EC’s out the door and accepted to Harvard. The other 2 came from privates and landed up in Brown and Yale…it is statistically a hard school to get into, and if you don’t have the grades, than you need a good hook.

Moviestarr…difference is Bred should have had TA(Tuition Assistance) during Active duty (military pays 75% of tuition) or the GI Bill…no financial excuse…plus when you seperate from the service you can sell back leave up to 90 days of pay, which could have pd back any TA that was taken and not pd back by committment time.

moviestarrr2 · December 30, 2008, 2:43pm

bulletandpima- I feel you. Not trying to read anything into what he wrote, I took away that he had a sufficient amount of input from those sources. He did write that he had “reassurances”. I would think that was a little more than a quick 5 minute meeting. Only bred knows.

As far as not going to school right away, there can be reasons for that. He just has to explain and hope for the best. I mean, it very well may be that he wasn’t interested until recently? Maybe there was a catalyst that sparked this new founded interest? I don’t know. I think it’s great he’s being pro-active and taking courses up front before applying. Rather than getting denied; like me, and then taking courses after. After reading these threads and all these posts though, I would have never thought that I had a chance of getting accepted.

If I started a fresh post and wrote out my story and asked “what do you think my chances are?”, probably 80% of the responses would say I didn’t have a chance. No recent college experience. No awards or accolades of notoriety. Just some interesting work experience after blowing off my academic scholarship that I had straight out of HS.

So based off my experience, he’ll have recent college experience. He has some type of awards (exaggerated or not) and his work experience is commendable.

The story about your friends is impressive for me. I knew I had favor getting accepted from God but reading that really makes me feel blessed! :)

bred.to.please · December 30, 2008, 2:54pm

Alright, I’d like to state first that I did attend classes while I was in the military while I was in Japan in between deployments. I took courses at the University of Maryland University College Asia campus and received high marks. My schedule was too unpredictable, however, for me to make any significant dent in my studies (as a journalist, they say you work when the story tells you to.) But yeah, I did consistently make the attempt to continue my education while in the military and that shows in my records.

Second, bulletandpima. I mentioned humanitarian assistance and disaster relief because that was where I wanted to focus on my experiences in the Marines. We are not only journalists in the Marines. Our official billet is “combat correspondent,” and we serve in the capacity of public affairs representatives. Since it is a very small field, enlisted (even junior enlisted) members are expected to fill higher billets than their ranks would normally allow.

I also had unique technical knowledge in computer programming and design that my unit used heavily on various deployments to enhance our mission. Sometimes that knowledge extended my use into the communications billets even though they weren’t necessarily a part of my job description. That’s how I earned my personal commendation and achievement medals, for consistently performing beyond my pay grade. And that’s why I was requested to serve in the Marine Corps’ Manhattan office at the end of my tour in Japan.

If you’d like to continue questioning my military career, please PM me. I feel ridiculous airing irrelevant details regarding my military accomplishments in a public forum and I don’t feel like this discussion is helping anybody else here.

moviestarrr2 · December 30, 2008, 3:00pm

Exactly my point in post #54 relating back to your initial post. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. Based off what you first wrote, you have just as much chance as anyone. Maybe that’s why bulletandpima- friends’ kids didn’t get accepted. Not enough NON-tradition? You just never know. Present yourself the best you can and go for it.

bred.to.please · December 30, 2008, 3:05pm

moviestarrr2: I spoke with the dean for about an hour (I was actually interviewing him for a story I was writing on a program Columbia hosted for service members during Fleet Week and somehow it turned into a discussion on my life.) At the end, he handed me his business card and told me that he felt I had an excellent shot at getting into GS. We’ve spoken over the phone a few times since then and he’s given me more advice regarding my application. Still, I think it says less about my chances and more about his work ethic and general concern for GS applicants. :)

Like bulletandpima said, the military has very good programs for active-duty education if you can find the time. I don’t have any particularly good reasons for not going to school while I was in New York. I was depressed and dealing with separation anxiety stemming from my assignment at an independent duty station. There were no Marines around and I felt an overwhelming inability to relate to civilians my age. I pretty much just kept to my apartment and read books. So, I don’t think I can really defend myself there. Hence why I’m going to college now.

Former Marine applying for GS

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