Yes, either go T14 or go to the best school in your state–everything else in-between is a hard row.
The ABA requires law schools to report employment outcome data, which you can look up.
For the 2013 graduating class, only 44% of Baltimore Law School grads had obtained full-time, long-term, JD-required employment nine months after graduation. 52% for UMD law school. 72% for Georgetown Law (including their night school students). 87% for Harvard Law. 96% for UVA Law.
YMMV.
True that many lawyers working in Baltimore went to Baltimore and Maryland law schools. But many lawyers who are not working went to those schools too.
I would preface, that full-time employment, per their definitions, does not include prestigious and very sough-after federal clerkships—which many in the later two school are now employed. Thus, these are not entirely precise numbers…
<<<
For the 2013 graduating class, only 44% of Baltimore Law School grads had obtained full-time, long-term, JD-required employment nine months after graduation. 52% for UMD law school. 72% for Georgetown Law (including their night school students). 87% for Harvard Law.
[QUOTE=""]
[/QUOTE]
But there are less expensive options that have very good employment rates.
My state’s only public law school reports:
Class of 2014 graduates had an employment rate of 92% with 4% pursuing an additional degree.
It’s not a T-14, but it is ranked in the top 25.
Yes, the percentages aren’t quite accurate. Both Baltimore and Maryland have a night school, and the % include all graduates but only counts those working at full time jobs that require a law degree. Many night school student retain their full time jobs (teachers, firemen, businessmen, store owners, insurance salesmen - I even knew one who was a state delegate) that don’t require a law degree, so they are indeed working, just not counted in the % of LAW employed graduates, and some don’t have any intention of working as a lawyer. I’ve worked with a law school grad who ran the governmental affairs department of the company, and he never took the bar. A classmate of mine was an ER doc who just wanted the law school experience to be a professional witness (he dropped out) The 48% of Maryland grads aren’t unemployed or even under employed, they just aren’t working in jobs that require a law degree. In many states, it is not required to have a law degree to be a judge. Some are working part time by choice.
I disagree with the “Top-14 or bust” mentality. The farther away you get from NYC, the less it matters what your law school was ranked (if anyone even knows). My niece’s roommate just picked George Washington over Georgetown because GW gave more in FA. She’ll get her first job and then hardly anyone will ask or care.
The vagaries between GW and Gtown are not that distinct and don’t really make for the best argument,e.g they are both very solid law schools. But, if you are saying U Dayton (and with all due respect) and Gtown, well, if your desire is to work outside of Dayton, then I say there profound and very tangible differences in the institutions.
You can disagree with the Top 14 or bust mentality all you want. But the reality- the hard core reality- is that outside of the top tier-- let’s call it the top 25 law schools, every metric of “success”- bar passage rates, ability to pay back loans either via earnings or via a public sector/fellowship forgiveness program, employment, etc. starts to go down.
It is NOT the case with people now practicing who are in their 40’s and 50’s, many of whom did just fine graduating from Suffolk or Cardozo; paid back their loans and have had fine careers.
But to take on the kind of debt now required to get a degree from one of these schools (unless a parent is paying- also a fine option) given the post-2008 employment trends- you’ve really got to think twice and three times.
And guess what- every single person I know who has a law degree but “never intended” to work a lawyer-- is either someone who tried and could not pass the bar or passed the bar but could not get a job working in the field (not just as an admitted lawyer- but in something law related.)
Folks don’t get a JD and work as a paralegal because they wanted the intellectual stimulation of law school. Folks don’t get a JD and work as an editor at Lexis-Nexis as a primary career- they go to Bloomberg and Lexis or Westlaw (jobs that do not require a JD but it’s a “nice to have”) AFTER a few years of practice, especially since those jobs are more family friendly/work life balance than even government lawyers.
44% from Baltimore? Even if it’s really 50%, being generous- that’s abysmal.
Two – Your anecdotal evidence is just that – anecdotal.
Here’s the employment and under-employment numbers for the 2014 class, apples to apples:
Baltimore 50%, 19.4%
Maryland 57%, 18.6%
GW 79%, 8.7%
Gtown 80%, 9.4%
UVA 94%, 1.7%
Harvard 90%, 4.3%
It is what it is.
I agree that the argument I went to xyz 30
years ago and it worked out for me; therefore, it will work out for 20 year olds is suspect.
Times change. I think this is one reason parents suffer from angst. Parents are unsure what works and they want as much certainty as they can get for their kids. The kids end up trying to go to the same places. The process and the results are self fulfilling.
Having said this, the northeast is a different animal than the rest of the country. The names of the schools are so important in the northeast.
If a governor’s kid goes to UMD law school, I would think the kid is going to have lots of opportunities. Maybe I am wrong on this.
More on the dismal O’Malley finances from the Washington Post:
I am very unimpressed. If this is how they manage their personal finances, he should not be running for President. It is amazing that with that income and free housing as governor they have no savings or investments.
How many of your circle went to night school? MANY of my classmates had jobs in business, engineering, teaching. They went to law school and hoped to practice law (except the engineer, he always wanted to own the engineering company and that’s what he did) someday, but did not quit their full time careers immediately after law school to practice at a lower paying job. My sister’s company sent her through law school at night. She was a landman. I don’t know how long it was after she graduated before she left that job and became a full time lawyer, but it wasn’t within the first year of graduating, so in the statistics, she would not have been in the 44% or 52% employed in a law diploma required job for at least a year after graduation. I graduated and did a temp job for a few months until I got a clerkship, but I didn’t have it for 1 year by the time they would have taken the poll so I wouldn’t be included as having full time work for 1 year either. I didn’t make $50k per year (the going rate at the time), but I also didn’t work 65 hours a week proofing briefs at a big firm either.
If it’s only worth going to the top 14, how do all these hundreds of other law schools survive? Plenty of grads from U Minn or Dayton or U Denver or U Oregon find not only jobs but careers. They get federal clerkships, they work for big named firms, they work in the DA’s offices and some set up their own firms and do DUIs and divorces (which doesn’t count in the survey either). We had an honors attorney at the government agency I worked for who went to law school in upstate NY (Buffalo? Rochester? not top 14). I don’t even know what his class rank was. He did the honors program and then got hired by the agency. Nice gig, and he had no hooks - white male, in his 20’s, married, no kids. I don’t think any of the honors attorneys chosen by the agency went to T-14 programs. This wasn’t 40 years ago but 2. Law students are still finding jobs, just not on Wall Street. They don’t want to work on Wall Street.
I don’t know if they did this poll 30 years ago, but I’m not sure the numbers for employment would have been any different. Not all that many people had full time permanent law jobs when I graduated. The top students usually did, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Martin O’Malley’s class at Maryland had a 52% job placement rate right out of school too, and he found a job, his wife found a job, and if his daughter goes to law school at Maryland, I think she’ll find one too.
“If it’s only worth going to the top 14, how do all these hundreds of other law schools survive?”
By shrinking. Law school enrollments today are 75% of what they were in 2010. You might want to google “Thomas Cooley law school.” Or “law school crisis.”
At many law schools 50% of the grads do in fact get law jobs. Good for them. The problem is the other 50%.
“Having said this, the northeast is a different animal than the rest of the country. The names of the schools are so important in the northeast.”
It is the same everywhere. Employment, under-employment numbers from law schools around the country:
Denver 55%, 29%
Seattle 45%, 28%
Ole Miss 51%, 24%
Creighton (NE) 60%, 16%
Houston 63%, 16%
Suffolk (MA) 46%, 26%
Dayton (OH) 49%, 20%
If you think 50/50 odds are good, then you probably like to play roulette.
But what were those numbers in 1984, 1994, or 2004? If you only look at those grads who have had 1 year of continuous employment at a job that requires a JD, I’ll bet you’ll find the numbers weren’t all that different. Firms weren’t lined up to hire us in 1984 either.
“$65,346 pension that O’Malley receives as a former mayor and city council member in Baltimore.”
Couldn’t let this one go by.
Marty is currently 52. Presumably he started drawing this pension when he left the mayor’s office in 2007 – which would have been age 44. Nice!!
He has to wait until 2018 (age 55) before his $90k a year former governor pension kicks in. Also nice!!
My guess is that he is angling to be HRC’s veep so he can collect a third public pension.
@northwesty, don’t go there with me. 
I am not sure why you threw my quote in with the other quote.
[QUOTE=""]
The Democratic hopeful and his wife, Catherine Curran O’Malley, a district court judge, had taken on $339,200 in loans to put their two eldest children through prestigious universities and took out a mortgage on a $549,000 home in Baltimore after living with their four children in the governor’s mansion in Annapolis for the past eight years.
[/QUOTE]
The couple, who have virtually no savings aside from their public-sector pensions, also took out a line of credit of at least $100,000, according to a disclosure form O’Malley filed with the Federal Election Commission that was made public this week.
Aides said that the O’Malleys, who put their four children through Catholic grade schools and high schools, have enough money to cover their expenses and debt payments but have never lived extravagantly. Catherine Curran O’Malley makes $141,333 a year as a district court judge in Baltimore, and the couple reported no outside income from stocks or other investments.
On their 2014 tax return, the most recent filed, the O’Malleys list $330,777 in total income. That includes the couple’s salaries and a $65,346 pension that O’Malley receives as a former mayor and city council member in Baltimore.
[QUOTE=""]
[/QUOTE]
Holy Smokes! Their combined income is quite high yet they have soooo much debt and no savings?
I don’t believe that they don’t live extravagantly. Their earnings just didn’t just go to Catholic school tuition. Seriously, my cousin lives in their area and she put 5 kids thru Catholic schools…on one income, which was lower than theirs…and they have savings/investments. Her oldest three have graduated from college and the twins start this fall. No debt.
Also, for 8 years, weren’t they living in the gov’rs mansion? There’s got to be some savings with living expenses associated with that.
I don’t think they lived in the governor’s mansion, or at least didn’t live there full time. I think their kids were in school in Baltimore, she worked in Baltimore, I think they mostly lived in their own home. The governor of my state did that when his kids were in high school, and his own home was only 45 minutes away.
that piece indicated that they had been living in the gov’rs mansion for 8 years.
[QUOTE=""]
took out a mortgage on a $549,000 home in Baltimore after living with their four children in the governor’s mansion in Annapolis for the past eight years.
[/QUOTE]
The couple, who have virtually no savings aside from their public-sector pensions, also took out a line of credit of at least $100,000,
[QUOTE=""]
[/QUOTE]
Either way…their income is too large to have needed to borrow for everything. Where was their income going? Certainly not to college costs.
Mom – It went to expensive private Catholic grammar and high schools.
Marty’s two older daughters went to Notre Dame Prep in Towson. That isn’t the local cheap parochial or diocesan school. It is the kind of swanky Catholic prep school that will perhaps get you into Georgetown some day. Especially if you play on their awesome lacrosse team.
$18,250 each per year per kid. So four kids at schools like that equals an annual tab of $73,000 per year in after tax dollars. Pretty steep.
It does appear that they did live in Annapolis even though the kids were in high school in Towson and the mom is a judge in Baltimore.
As a family, they obviously prioritize education.
<<<
As a family, they obviously prioritize education
<<<
I think they prioritize prestige.
And, I still think that it’s BS that they don’t live extravagantly. You don’t send your kids to swanky schools and then don’t participate in all that goes with those schools…fancy cars, designer clothes, school galas, etc. These kids weren’t scholarship students.