Try just copying and pasting this into a google search.
“Anger over rape sentence shows activism paying off.”
While denying that rape culture exists, musicprnt gives a succinct description of rape culture:
Drinking to excess is not “okay” no matter who is doing the drinking. It’s stupid and self-destructive. It is also not deserving of randomly applied punishment-by-rape for half the population. Nor is it license to do so for the other half.
Rape hysteria maybe I’ll give you that. Frankly I don’t walk around and have never walked around in fear of men and never felt they had some special power to hurt me simply because of their DNA. I saved this quote, but not the attribution unfortunately, but I believe in it:
Which really is off-thread, but the thread is moving off topic.
Unfortunately, this mentality of blaming factors external to the one behaving badly/committing crimes has had a long history:
The long history of blaming trendy modern music of a given era for bad/criminal behavior of adolescents/young adults from the jazz of the 1920’s-30’s, rock music from the '50s till the '90s, hip/hop rap from the '80s onward, etc by clueless older generations who were really practicing a variant of “get off my lawnism” with a bit of racism thrown in* because they don’t care for and are too closed-minded to even try giving those genres a chance.
The blaming of video games for individuals/criminals behaving badly/committing crimes during the '80’s onward.
There’s a reason why many who can see past the red herring nature of such arguments and rhetoric find it ridiculous that many have been hoodwinked into believing such specious arguments by those with strong biases and/or have strong authoritarian prohibitionist inclinations in regards to “bad” musical genres, video games, alcohol, etc.
To this ENTJ…it’s a variant of someone advocating a bad/excessively restrictive policies just because of factors like “tradition” or “that’s the way it’s always been done” without other compelling points with much/any substance. That and blaming the symptoms rather than focusing on the actual root cause…the badly behaving individual/criminal’s decision to behave badly/commit the crime(s) in question.
- Most of those genres when they first came out were strongly associated with African-American musicians who played a critical role in innovating and introducing those genres to adolescents/young adults who were into the "underground scene" of their time before those genres became popularized across the more mainstream US public of the time.
@momofthreeboys :“Saying that it is OK for women to drink to excess but not men is as bad as saying boys will be boys…”
I understand where you are coming from, the problem with this is you are conflating two topics and in the process of doing that, you (I think unintentionally) are adding into the very culture of rape you decry, because you are blaming alcohol, and by mentioning the victim in effect saying "if you hadn’t been drunk , this wouldn’t happen’, which can be perceived as blaming the victim (and again, I don’t think you are doing this). Blaming alcohol is ignoring the underlying reason for all this, that someone, drunk or not, would take advantage of a drunk person, period. And where does that end when it comes to the girls? Would you tell them “if you hadn’t been wearing a miniskirt and heels this wouldn’t happen?” or “if you hadn’t been dumb enough to go to a frat party, where the men are often animals, this wouldn’t happen?”…I doubt it, but even bringing up booze is doing just that, it is telling the victims if you didn’t drink, this wouldn’t happen, and it is also saying, unintentionally, to the perps "that’s okay, we understand it was the booze.
They need to be treated as two different things:
1)There is no doubt that binge drinking on campus is a problem, and it is fine to go after this as its own thing. Drinking like this has many problems with it, heavy drinking causes brain problems, it causes people to get into accidents like falling down stairs, driving drunk, getting into fights, vandalism, and yes, sexual assault , from both sides as perp and victim. The key thing there is if we highlight the cost of drinking, about drinking responsibly, we are highlighting a score of possible problems, and I don’t think anyone on here would agree.
2)Sexual assault on campus. Would cutting down binge drinking cut down incidents? Of course, there is no doubt in my mind. Will it get rid of all assaults? No, because booze isn’t the cause, it is a ‘lubricant’. First of all, some of those doing this would commit sexual assault no matter what, it might be more difficult, but a guy like turner might well do it with a roofie, for example, and a number of assaults happen that way. The thing is that alcohol might make someone a victim who otherwise might not be, and might allow someone else who ordinarily wouldn’t do it go ahead, it likely might prevent some of the gray area cases because the accused if sober enough would realize the partner was no longer functioning and would stop…but that alone won’t stop this kind of thing.
There are multiple elements to bring down the number of sexual assaults, and all have to be done to make this work:
1)Yes, pointing out the problems with getting drunk and what happens is important, alcohol education would help. However, many schools already do, and kids likely have gone through alcohol education in high school, it isn’t exactly like society promotes underage drinking, it is the obvious…yet kids still drink, no matter what we do (prohibition isn’t going to work, and isn’t the answer, nor is increasing the penalties for underage drinking).
2)Universities have to make it clear their policies, and train staff across the board on their duty and responsibilities. It can’t just be the provost and so forth, it has to be everyone, RA’s, sports coaches, anyone who is associated with the school.
3)Make clear if someone in the university covers up or ignores these things, if they make the victim the guilty party, there will be zero tolerance. At Baylor, if this hadn’t hit the press, do you think the football coach, the head of the school and the AD would have ended up losing their jobs?
4)For the students, it is education, and it also again is zero tolerance and making it clear what the rules are, what the policies are and that they be transparent. There also needs to be some kind of standards coming from courts and the law, about how these processes work, they seem from my reading to range from being ‘it is boys will be boys’ to “anyone accused is automatically guilty”, and neither is good. I have read enough to read about cases where it seems to be a gray area where I think the school over reacts.
5)The law itself takes it seriously, and there be serious consequences for law enforcement when they don’t. Perhaps there should be federal regulations around this where if a victim can’t get justice , federal civil rights charges can be filed. I also would like to see penalties if they find that law enforcement is not taking these cases seriously, that cops and DA’s that are found to be refusing to prosecute face sanctions.
6)Penalties have to be such that a judge can’t do what this clown did, other articles cite that very few people accused of these kinds of crimes actually even face jail time.
The thing about legal deterrence is that it can change attitudes, and that is the biggest one. I think the education campaign will help, victims talking about what this did to them will make people realize how bad it is, and to be honest the victim’s father in this case seeing the kind of backlash to his statements, or the judge to the public reaction (and I am not talking the threats of violence, those are wrong), might make them think more that this is not some drunken mistake but rather is something that really hurt the victim (and I honestly hope the women’s groups the judge proudly proclaims to be a member of shows him the door, it sound like he belongs to them more about making himself look good with a voting constituency rather than really caring).
Btw I think the judge is a gutless coward, he hides behind the probation report when he had every right to decide his own sentence, blaming on the probation report means he agreed with the guidelines, but used them as his excuse.
TL; DR.
I’m glad for you MO3B - I hope we can all get there one day. I am not there. I am a small person - most men who wanted to hurt me would be able to. I am not afraid of men, but I am most definitely “aware” of them. I am a runner, and I plan my runs for daylight hours, or at least when I know others will be around. I would never run on a trail by myself at any hour of the day which is a bummer, because often I would like to. I know that 99.9% of men are good ones, but I also know that that .1% is indistinguishable from the others until they act.
Men DO have special power to hurt women, due to their increased size, strength, and (generalizing here) aggressiveness. I believe that whether they choose to or not CAN be affected by the culture around them.
@cardinalfang:
I didn’t deny that there was a culture around excusing rape and such, if you read the totality of my posts you will know I don’t deny it. I was referring to something that as common in some quarters, that basically rape is inherent to being a man, that even consensual sex could be considered rape and so forth, I was talking extremes. There is a culture out there among some men that has the underlying cause of rape, that when it comes to sex between men and woman that things like having sex with a girl who is drunk isn’t rape, that ‘boys will be boys’ or that worse, there are certain groups of men who could ‘never rape’, apparently like the judge seemed to feel about this case (he might think a crime happened, his sentence says he didn’t think it was all that bad, a mere ‘mistake’ or something). Rape culture is more like a culture of entitlement when it comes to sex, that transcends whether or not the potential partner wants it or is able to consent.
I can’t help think that this young man just doesn’t “get it”. He clearly hasn’t apologized for his actions. Is there any indication that he is sorry. He reminds me of Owen Labrie - who by the way was NOT drinking alcohol. Both boys seem to be very immature when it comes to sex and their interaction with women. Both young men were smart, popular and athletic. Both had the world laid out beneath their feet. Both seem more sorry for themselves than what they did to their victims. Emma Watson addressed the UN several years back about inviting men to join the feminist movement. How the world won’t change for women without them. It’s not about sex. We need men to recognize women as equals. It’s about trying to counteract the constant messages boys learn @ women through video games, tv, movies, sports, commercials, music and especially the venacular of young men. Look at the photos Turner sent to his friends! Or the emails Labrie sent to his. They were both self validating. Trying to appear like the big man on campus. I’m not trying to blame the media or even society. I believe most men are wonderful and behave morally. But both of these young men had classes on sexual assault through their schools, are highly educated and have families that support them. But they never learned. Tone deaf? Entitled? Narcissistic? What kind of man needs to have any type of sexual encounter with an unconscious woman or a high school freshman. It’s a sad statement on THEM! I applaud the young men who helped her and her boyfriend that has supported her over the last months. These are real men!
When feminists talk about “rape culture,” they are not talking about rape being inherent in a man. They are talking about just what you said-- the idea that boys will be boys, that a rapist isn’t culpable when he’s drunk, the idea that it’s on women to prevent rape, that a rapist should only get a six month sentence because prison might be harmful to him, that “she wanted it.”
If rape were indeed inherent in being a man, then there could be no rape culture. The idea of rape culture implies the possibly of a not-rape culture, which also had men in it, but not widespread diminishing of rape. If rape were inherent in being a man, then it would be impossible to have any culture that was not a rape culture.
Well said, Cardinal Fang ( #1190). The whole point is, rape is a choice, made by the rapist. Most men don’t make that choice. Most men who drink don’t make that choice. Most men who drink to excess don’t make that choice. Alcohol doesn’t cause rape, rapists cause rape.
@momofthreeboys, for somebody who advocates for women being smart…
What you wrote is not smart.
Men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. That is just a fact.
Verbal takedown of the convicted felon by a former acquaintance who was part of the same local swimming community and knew his less than savory character firsthand:
http://www.revelist.com/us-news/guy-bullied-brock-turner/2912
https://www.facebook.com/aj.burt.2015/posts/10209210569319258
I like this quote better.
If all goes well, I am going to be a grandfather this year. I am going to have a granddaughter. I’m stoked.
Yeah… This is the quote I like.
@momofthreeboys, you may have granddaughters someday.
When women get drunk, they don’t seem to rape so alcohol is clearly not the primary cause. I agree that it may be a facilitator.
In Brock’s letter to the judge post conviction, he clearly does not take responsibility for the crime and continues to lie about the facts and blame the victim. He says that he didn’t leave her unconscious body because he was caught by the Swedish students, but because he had to vomit. He says that he told her that and she replied. Clearly a lie as the Swedish students were alerted to the problem because she was inert and unresponsive while he was thrusting himself on her. He also continued to assert that she was interested in his sexual contact and was moaning with pleasure while he was digitally penetrating her. Even if she was conscious at some point during his sexual contact, it is unlikely that she was pleasured by him sticking his finger, pine combs, and who knows what else insider her vagina on the ground beside a dumpster. This was a mature woman with a serious boyfriend and he exposed her naked body to the public and continues to assert that she was interested in having sex with him on the ground. It’s his total lack of acceptance of what he has done, and his family’s support in that lack of acceptance, that people find horrifying. If this were my son, I would support him with the best legal counsel and advocate for the least possible sentence, but I would not do so at the expense of the victim and I would make sure that he understood that what he had done was inexcusable.
Maybe but angry feminists dispelled that. They do not want to talk about anything other than the fault of men. If they could blog with any balance in their thoughts I might be able to stand up with them. Sorry I’m not there. Women have a huge ability to “hurt” men as men have a huge ability to “hurt” women and until we can stop blaming the other sex in generalities we won’t solve any issues. And until the angry feminists talk about rape culture as anything other than a “men” problem and stop talking amongst themselves and opening themselves up to listening you’ll not understand my position and neither will many men. Anger clouds discussion. They even manged to own a “word” to describe people that don’t ascribe to their view to justify zero desire to think about the issues in any way other than theirs as if there were a singular cult of feminism and a single cult of masculinity. Sad.
MO3B - putting aside interpersonal hurt, which I agree goes in both directions equally, please explain how women have a huge ability to hurt men.
Men are usually the rapists.
All men aren’t rapists. Most men aren’t rapists.
And the rape problem is not just men. Some women are enablers for the rape culture.
I don’t feel threatened as a man by feminists. My son doesn’t. The men in my famly aren’t afraid. My male friends don’t feel threatened.
You aren’t afraid of men when you walk the streets at dark alone, but you are afraid of feminists?
You are afraid of Ted Poe?
“Angry feminists” secured our right to vote.
Adding: The anger isn’t the problem. The feminism isn’t the problem. What we’re angry about is the problem.