The victim’s BAL only comes up as gaps sometimes in the testimony of the victim, the cohesiveness of the testimony or victim’s statement. The issue people have with THIS trial is that Turner’s drunkenness was considered in the sentencing phase and is considered in other sentencing for this and other crimes.
I haven’t seen any resistance to the idea of telling kids it’s not cool to drink enough to need assistance. My husband and I repeatedly talk with our high-schoolers about the dangers of drugs and alcohol. I also speak with them about sexual assault. One conversation does not preclude another.
I also think that the problem with rape reporting and conviction is not simply a lack of witnesses or the “he said, she said” issue. You would be surprised, perhaps horrified, at the number of people convicted of murder (even on death row) for crimes without any witnesses and even without forensic evidence. I think we have this prevailing idea that sexual crimes are different. That women cry rape when it is not rape. I think it is that fear that has so gripped @momofthreeboys that she sees her sons as constantly at risk of being on the receiving end of false accusations. I also worry for my son, but there is no evidence to support this fear. Yes, it can happen, but men are also at risk of being falsely accused, and even convicted, of other crimes. The best way to mitigate this risk is to improve the investigation and adjudication process, not to minimize the consequences for offenders.
I think this article by the husband of a rape victim/ father of 3 boys is very relevant.
I disagree with his false equivalency that because 25% women face sexual assult that 25% of men are sexual assulters, but I think he makes some important points.
Just one example of how rape culture is pervasive and normalized is rape jokes. They are still a pervasive part of common culture. And they occur in Greek and Roman comedy, Shakespeare, and so on. If a Western Literary Canon exists, they are embedded in that Canon. So, in many cases, we teach it in school and watch it for entertainment.
Rape culture is so pervasive it is difficult to see, but it strongly impacts how we view the world. Rape isn’t ever a joke.
Believing in rape culture doesn’t make someone anti-male. It isn’t women vs men. It is human beings vs rapists.
It would be an overreach to say that “rape culture” is universal. But there are some social circles which one could reasonably say have “rape culture” in terms of being too aggressive in seeking sex without being careful about consent, or caring about consent at all.
I have no fear that my kids are at risk. I’m just very interested in this sociologically. having watched a generation of young people move through their late teens and into their twenties. None of my sons…and the older two are rapidly advancing through their twenties have ever been accused of sexual assault. Although I have disclosed that I know two young men who were falsely accused so that is impossible not to shape some of my thoughts. One accusation was redacted by the accuser after a lengthy investigation and the other case is a Title IX case and is wending it’s way through court and never was tried in a criminal court. I totally agree about investigation and adjudication and probably why I am opposed to the expansion of Title IX and it’s lack of subpoena and investigative strength.
Breast cancer is funded at the rate at which it is in large part because of the efforts of the Susan Komen Foundation, which is a private entity. I would also point out that men can, in fact, get at least three different types of breast cancer, though women are not going to get prostate cancer (unless they are transwomen). Further, most research into issues as diverse as autism and heart disease has centered on how it manifests in men-- and it manifests very differently in girls/women, such that diagnosis and treatment is often delated.
My son and I have had the talk about the ramifications of sex/unplanned pregnancy, and the reality that she gets to choose while he doesn’t. She also gets to assume the physical risks. It’s a crap situation for anyone in the equation-- it’s not a nefarious plot to steal his life (or if it is, he’s sleeping with the wrong girls).
But this is completely tangential to the subject, even to the subject of whether there’s parity in the ability of one sex to harm the other (especially since health funding is overwhelmingly controlled by male CEOs and public policy makers). Ultimately, my son and husband are not worried, walking out of the store at night, that they will be accosted by roving bands of high school girls-- or even by a single female-- intent on mayhem. I don’t know any women who don’t feel the need to be on guard at the mall, at Kroger, at the cinema. It is what it is…but it shouldn’t be.
Momofthreeboys: It kind of makes my head spin when you write in one post you have never been worried about men, and the next morning advocate women protecting themselves from possible assault and rape.
I am pretty sure those two ideas are contradictory.
Maybe you are saying if all women are some kind of Wonder Woman, we don’t have to be concerned? I don’t think that is realistic.
I, personally, have rarely been worried. But I’m pretty risk adverse and I’m a bit of a control freak so I don’t like feeling out of control e.g. when I drink. I’ve been that way my whole life. I’ve had to compete with men my whole life…in my sport before Title IX, in college in a heavily male dominated major, in grad school and in the workplace. I’m quite comfortable being to the point and direct with “men” I joke that this is the reason I ended up with 3 sons and no daughters…that and my H’s boy-producing sperm.
Are you risk adverse and a control freak because you want to protect yourself? Is that why you aren’t worried? Because you are taking steps to protect yourself?
Or is it just coincidental that you have those qualities and thus aren’t worried?
A lot of dynamics come onto play that will affect how “worried” each individual woman might feel about her personal safety. I don’t walk around all day looking over my shoulder, but as a poster said upthread I remain “aware”.
And yes, I am aware of the fact that most men could easily overpower me if they chose to do so. I don’t “worry” I simply take reasonable precautions. Maybe some women might view that acknowledgment as “weak” but I just view it as a fact of life - I am 5’1 and that is not going to change.
@momofthreeboys maybe you worry less because you have more stature - I think it was you who posted a while ago that you were close to 6’0 - apologies ahead of time if I have confused you with another poster. That puts you at a distinct advantage.
@momofthreeboys, if you are available, I might need a body guard. 
It is good to see you own up to your own biased perspective, momofofthreeboys: You “see” your sons’ friends ( if not your sons) in Brock Turner. That is the ’ but for the grace of God, go I" perspective that long blocked appropriate recognition of the full import of drunk driving offenses. Your perspective makes it very difficult for you to acknowledge that sexual assaults in drunken circumstances is actually rape.
I don’t understand how, as a woman, you are so unable to put yourself in a young woman’s shoes in these circumstances. Perhaps it is as you say because you have never needed to worry how best to parent or prepare a young daughter for dangers that lurk unseen and possibly disguised as friends and acquainces around her.
As I read your posts herein, it was only after you felt the information about the two witnesses seeing Turner literally on top of the young woman did you concede it was a proven case. Up until that, you believe only that the witnesses had tackled him away from her a small distance and their testimony of the reason they did so was insufficient to call it rape.
And you continue throughout this to decrease the responsibility for the rape because first she was excessively drunk and secondly because he was drunk. If this is your understanding of what is/is not rape, then how can we trust that it is not your sons’ understanding as well? There are sooo many young men that believe that and will continue to believe that until they are taught differently.
Yes, we parents of girls teach them ad nauseum to never go alone to parties , bars, nightclubs, etc, to never leave their girlfriends alone at such, to not accept open drinks unless you’ve seen it’s " chain of custody", better yet to always get your own drink, never leave a drink unattended, please God don’t drink to excess, always have a designated driver/ group member, etc. The list goes on. But all young people believe they are invincible and that nothing will happen to them, young college woman, too.
Even if they follow all these ‘rules’, it only takes one less vigilant moment — like Emily’Doe’s sister leaving to escort her friend home-- for a predator to strike.
Do you have to warn your sons similarly? Or is it just a matter of don’t drive while drinking.
Who knows…my dad was risk adverse and my mom was a control freak so perhaps some of that is genetic. I’m even less risk adverse about financial business than my husband. I do think I took “more” risk when I was young, lived in riskier neighborhoods, rode on the back of a motorcycle :-), backpacked in Europe with a friend, things like that…there is just that immutable invincible-sense that young people sometimes have. I don’t think being less or more risky would cause someone to do something criminal, but I think being less or more risk tolerant has bearing. My oldest son is in risk management so the seed doesn’t fall far from the tree. Am I less risky because i know bad things can happen…absolutely. Do I think it’s risky for people to get drunk? Absolutely. Do I think bad things can happen when people are drunk. Absolutely because you lose control and it lowers your personal inhibitions controlled in the frontal cortex and you do could things you wouldn’t normally do sober.
HarvestMoon1, Yes I am 5’10, my siblings are even taller than I am.
“I haven’t seen any resistance to the idea of telling kids it’s not cool to drink enough to need assistance.”
When I say drinking to blackout will always be dangerous, and I am asked if I mean that Turner’s victim pulled him onto her and made him rape her…that’s resistance to talking about the issue. Voicing critique of alcohol abuse gets you accused of victim blaming. It happens to me all the time in real life and on other sites as well as on CC. I’ve come to accept it as a hazard of this conversation.
“I have always been friends with boys and men and not one, as far as I know, has ever had a fear of being accused of sexual assault.”
If they are currently in school and sexually active, they probably should have some fear, even if they only have contact with other men. I wouldn’t have said that three years ago.
I am 6’0" and before I got sick, I was very strong. I’ve been an athlete for my entire life and I can hold my own in a fight. I still know that most men can overpower me, especially if I’ve been drinking.
When I was in undergrad, my friends and I always had an escape plan. One of us stayed sober and we had code words if we needed help. We had apps on our phones that would let us track each other and call 911 with one touch.
THAT is rape culture. THAT is something men will almost never, ever go through.
We shouldn’t have to. We shouldn’t have to plan our lives around the fact that we might get raped. But we do because we live in this world. I hate that we live in this type of world, but we’re realists.
And the men that I choose to surround myself with also understand that rape culture is real. They watch out for their female friends when we go out. This isn’t because they’re paternalistic and feel the need to protect the little lady, but it’s because they understand that not all men are like them. Not all men will protect women- many will hurt them when they see them at a moment of “weakness.” These men (my friends) are in the majority and they do not feel as though they have to constantly be on guard against the predatory women you seem to be convinced are pervasive. Instead, these men- MOST men- will see a woman who’s been drinking and think “I should make sure she gets home safe” instead of “she’s too drunk to say no or push me away.”
Here are ALL the documents concerning the Stanford rapist. The prosecution’s recommendation for sentencing is 28 pages long! It’s very thorough and it reminded my that Brock ran once before when caught in the act - he ran from the police who ordered him to halt when they saw him with alcohol.
There’s a lot to go through.
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2016/06/10/county-releases-brock-turner-court-documents
“Yes, we parents of girls teach them ad nauseum to never go alone to parties , bars, nightclubs, etc, to never leave their girlfriends alone at such, to not accept open drinks unless you’ve seen it’s " chain of custody”, better yet to always get your own drink, never leave a drink unattended, please God don’t drink to excess, always have a designated driver/ group member, etc. The list goes on. (snip)
Do you have to warn your sons similarly? Or is it just a matter of don’t drive while drinking."
I have boy/girl twins. Of course I warned them similarly. What kind of question is this? Why would I not?
Yes, granted, my (petite) D is at more risk than my strong weightlifting S for getting roofied or attacked, but it’s kind of a duh that they were warned about the same things.
I would expect a number of the warnings/cautions to overlap for both young men and women. But do young men routinely get cautioned to not go to campus parties alone, to not travel alone on foot, and to never leave your buddy at a party, e.g.?
From my daughter’s male friends and from my friends of young men, the warnings about excessive drinking and to have a designated driver are given (and thankfully followed religiously re:designated driver), but I have seldom heard of them giving/receiving fervent or drilled in warnings regarding acceptance of open drinks from others or of attending parties alone, leaving with someone other than a friend you already know or came with, or leaving your male buddy alone at a party or bar. Seldom? Actually never and my friends and I have discussed college issues a lot since the first of any of our kids went off to school.
So ‘what kind of question is this?’ A sincere one.
“But do young men routinely get cautioned to not go to campus parties alone, to not travel alone on foot, and to never leave your buddy at a party, e.g.”
I tell my 23 yo son often - be aware of your surroundings. I’ve cautioned him not to jog at night or ride his bike at night because that sets him up to be a crime victim. What’s the difference, really.