One of the jurors on the case has written to the judge to express their dismay over the sentence:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-brock-turner-judge-20160614-snap-story.html
Pizzagirl, the people who do get over it were described as “resilient” in a recent post. Earlier on, the people who got over it were described as “stoic.” I don’t think it is pure projection to say that the implicit message of those posts is that a person who is not over it is neither resilient nor stoic. This seems like a logical implication to me. I know that the posters did not mean to be hurtful, for those who have not been able to get over it yet.
I am not particularly a fan of the Stoic philosophy. It would be great if we could offer a rape survivor a means to become more resilient in a reasonable time frame, as opposed to requiring years of therapy for some, depending on the circumstances of the rape.
Of course, it is good to note that some people recover from some rapes relatively fast.
I can tell you that my mother (who was assaulted as a young child) never got over it, even though she had a long and happy marriage. There were still emotional scars. She protected me from her sadness, and I only learned about the situation in adulthood.
I might add that for my mother the most helpful element in (partial) recovery was the gospel of forgiveness. But I would not recommend this to anyone who is not yet ready for that message.
I think that the people who recover in a relatively short period of time are “fortunate.” This could include their personal qualities or beliefs that help them to recover, or the circumstances of the rape, or genetic constitution, or a really good therapist, or medication that worked for them, or–really, who knows?
QM - I still had scars from being molested (though not raped) as a young teen (by an adult neighbor). I have plenty of sympathy for those who still suffer from the after effects, esp something far more violent than what I experienced. Trust me on this.
@Pizzagirl, sorry to learn of that part of your past. Glad you have come to terms with it.
The judge is bumped off another sexual assault case.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-bumps-stanford-sex-assault-judge-from-new-case/ar-AAh3MSv?li=BBnb7Kz
@raclut, nice link.
Is there a way to get this judge transferred to some other type of cases that exclude assaults?
Now the DA, who did not want Judge Persky recalled, had him removed from a sexual assault case.
In the case before this, where some jurors had refused to serve, he dismissed the charges after 2 days of trial before the jury could deliberate (misdemeanor theft).
Now, I’m no legal scholar and maybe he had good reason but it sure looks like a passive-aggressive way to exert his own powers over those of the jury. Again.
Here is the Washington post article about the judges removal from another sexual assault case https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/06/14/judge-who-issued-controversial-sentence-in-stanford-trial-removed-from-a-new-sexual-assault-case/
Wowser, sounds like the judge is being petulant. (Wonder if the defendant was a Stanford varsity athlete for whom jail would be unpleasant?) The details of the misdemeanor theft case dismissal are really surprising - sounded to me like and open and shut case that the jury should have received. I wonder if Persky is melting down under the media glare.
I don’t know if he’s “melting down” or flexing his muscles. Sounds passive aggressive to me.
“the people who got over it were described as “stoic.””
Let’s look at what I actually said:
“We shouldn’t be telling survivors that they are doomed to a lifetime of suffering or that they’re doing it wrong if they have a more stoic reaction. There’s no right way to grieve.”
I called the reaction stoic, not the survivor. Is there some word other than “stoic” that is more appropriate to describe the reactions at the other end of the trauma response spectrum?
Note: I didn’t bring it up here because I don’t think this ought to be a qualification for commenting on the subject, but I had ten years of treatment and flunked out of high school before we resolved my crippling childhood mental illness. Currently, I am counseling several students who are suffering or recovered from mental illness, as well as a young person who is taking time off from college after a sexual assault. No one in my house thinks capable/tough people are immune from psychological problems.
No wonder the legal aid lawyers were singing this judges praises, wow. From what happened in the petty theft case, he sounds like a baseball umpire that after a manager complains about his play calling behind the plate, suddenly means their pitcher’s strike zone is very narrow and the opposing pitchers quite wide.
If the DA used his challenge privileges to remove this judge I suspect that says a lot, from my limited reading that isn’t used all that commonly in California.
I wonder if the ‘women’s groups’ he belongs to will ask him to quit, if groups that supposedly support battered and abused women could allow someone like this who showed such indifference to the survivor of the assault and showed so much sympathy for someone who for all intents and purposes is no different than someone who beats up and rapes someone according to what has come out about Turner, I kind of would wonder about them.
Hanna, in this particular case I don’t think it makes too much difference whether it is the person or the reaction that is being described as “stoic.” I would guess that most people view it as good to be stoic–don’t they?–at least in the common American usage of the term.
I agree with you that we shouldn’t be telling the survivors anything. We should be listening to them and helping them, but respecting their reactions, whatever they are. I totally agree that there is no right way to grieve–or to be very angry, which is also a totally valid reaction.
Some of the people whose reaction is described as stoic may simply be in the “Underground Stage” of reaction, as described in the material quoted by Nrdsb4 in #1303. If this is so, then commending them for a stoic reaction might not be helpful. I think the more appropriate description of that stage of reaction might be “flat,” “matter-of-fact,” or “emotionless.”
Wikipedia has an article on the Stoic philosophy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism) that I thought was interesting–but disclaimer: My background in philosophy is quite weak.
I am sorry about your childhood experience, and very glad that you have recovered!
I am sorry QM, but I did not see it that way at all and think you are projecting your feelings (which are totally valid) onto Hanna’s words and misrepresenting what she said (perhaps not so valid or fair). She said people should not be made to feel they are “doing it WRONG if they have a more stoic reaction”. To me, she is pointing out that in some cases those who are less emotional and less open about trauma are judged harshly, not that being more stoic is better than being less so. In fact, you seem to believe that anyone who has a stoic (or less emotional) reaction is necessarily hiding their pain. I don’t see her commending the more stoic for that attitude, but simply pointing out that is within the range of possible, valid responses to trauma. She does not imply or state that someone with a more stoic response necessarily has no response or is not traumatized.
mom2and, of course I agree with Hanna that no one should say that any reaction on the part of a rape survivor is wrong. People are entitled to their reactions, whatever they are.
I do recognize that sometimes rape survivors are criticized or even disbelieved because they do not show their trauma. This is clearly wrong. On another thread, alh linked an article from the Atlantic where a woman who had in fact been raped was charged with and convicted of false reporting. Later there was photographic evidence that she had been raped–the rapist had kept records of those he had attacked. The woman’s foster mother had led police to disbelieve the report, because the victim’s reactions had seemed odd to her.
A stoic reaction by definition involves hiding pain: “stoic: a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining.”
There are many circumstances that might cause people to hide their pain, and being in the Underground Stage of reaction (as mentioned by Nrdsb4) is only one of them. I think rape survivors should do whatever feels right to them.
I just think that if someone is traumatized and shows it, people should avoid suggesting that they need to be more resilient, or stronger . . . which also happens.
It doesn’t help that people will judge if a victim seems to be having a great time partying it up afterwards. Judge Persky was criticized in the DeAnza rape civil trial because he allowed the defense to show photos of the rape victim dressed “provocatively” a year or so later at a party.
It burns me up that women are judged this way. Especially since we know that some rape victims “process” what has happened to them by acting out sexually. Oprah has talked about how she went through that as a young person after being sexually abused as a child. It happens. Pain can hide under many different exteriors and we should cheer when it goes away, if only for a brief time, rather than harping on the victim for not being a “good enough” victim.
Thank you, rant over (not directed at any particular comment BTW).
Yesterday about 40 members of congress took turns reading the entire victim impact statement on the floor of congress and it became a part of the congressional record. A large part of the California delegation, mostly women, but quite a few men also took turns reading the entire 12 page letter.
It looks like the Stanford Women’s team thought Brock was creepy. http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/womens-swim-team-not-surprised-by-brock-turner-arrest/
“It doesn’t help that people will judge if a victim seems to be having a great time partying it up afterwards. Judge Persky was criticized in the DeAnza rape civil trial because he allowed the defense to show photos of the rape victim dressed “provocatively” a year or so later at a party.”
I don’t understand why this is allowed at all, why legislatures have not made such lines of questioning illegal and put in sanctions for judges and lawyers who try to use it. No wonder defense lawyers like him, if he allows those kind of questions, he is a troglodyte who seems to think that if a woman is raped it somehow is her fault. That line of questioning used to be routine, there was an episode of “All in the Family” back in the 70’s where Gloria is raped, and the detective on the case prepares her for what court would be like, asking why she was dressed as she was, why she was walking where she was, was she sexually active, etc. I suspect the only way this jerk will understand why people are reacting to him the way they are would be for someone close to him, his wife, daughter (if he has one), niece, whoever, gets raped and then has to face accusations it was her fault. After reading about him routinely allowing defense lawyers to use that line of questioning, I think it is grounds for him being thrown off the bench, for all his championing of women who have been battered and such, the man is a raving misogynist if he believes how a girl was dressed, if she was partying, if she was sexually active had anything to do with whether the convicted perp should be sentenced. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone hacked this clowns private e-mail, and he wrote things about Turner like “boys will be boys” or the like, what an a-hole.