Sorry bclintonk, but isn’t all the discussion about standard of proof, reasonable doubt, etc. just hyperbole? In this case a conviction isn’t required. It just has to be reported.
It is disingenuous to say on one hand that a terrible wrong has been done, but on the other hand say that it doesn’t matter whether the matter is reported to the police or not. To require they go hand in hand is a reasonable protection for all here.
That appears to be the intent of the proposed legislation. My argument was in response to the numerous posters on this thread who have argued that colleges shouldn’t investigate and taking disciplinary action in cases of sexual assault at all, under any circumstances, because rape is a felony and should therefore be left exclusively to the (non-campus) police and public prosecutors. And that, it seems tome, gives license to campus rapists, because most rapes never result in criminal prosecution.
Maybe because what happens doesn’t meet the verbiage of existing rape laws in a given state or maybe because we’ve given license to women that it’s OK to say “it’s too draining” to pursue charges or maybe because we need to change the existing system instead of creating some alternative system or maybe we need to do a better job counseling kids who have discord about their sexuality (males and females).
Here’s an excerpt from a post about a recent Tennessee court case involving a sexual assault proceeding at a public university. (FWIW, in my opinion the blogger who wrote the post has definite biases but usually doesn’t distort the truth.)
The judge’s opinion is at http://chronicle.com/items/biz/pdf/memorandum-mock.pdf
Again, this is how this works in the real world. When you’re an employee of a company, the company could fire you for any reason because you’re an at-will employee - you don’t have to be found criminally guilty and you certainly don’t have the right to an attorney.
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I disagree. The employee, even an at will employee, has a lot of venues to get a fair hearing. In fact, it is unlikely the employer will hold a hearing. The employee can go to the EEOC, he can file a complaint with a state board, he can sue. If he works for the state or federal govt., there are a lot of steps, both internal and within the government, to be heard before an impartial panel. Most likely, he can get another job because the employer won’t release any negative information about the employee; we would only confirm dates of employment and confirm an approximate salary if the caller had the info - no ‘he was dismissed’ , ‘he stole’ or even ‘he raped his cubemate.’ No info given out at all. The problem with the university being the judge, jury, and executioner is that the student can’t just go to another college without consequence, and the university does have an interest in the outcome, is not unbiased.
No, I think much of this misses the mark. It’s not just campus rapes that are underreported and underprosecuted. According to the Justice Department National Crime Victimization Survey, only 32 out of every 100 rapes or sexual assaults (which include attempted rapes) get reported to the police–and that’s for all rapes and sexual assaults. Non-student females of college age (18-24) are 1.2 times more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted than students of that age, according to DOJ. Of the 32 that are reported, only 7 result in an arrest; of those, only 3 are prosecuted; and of the 3, only 2 are convicted.
Student victims of rape and sexual assault are actually somewhat less likely to report the crime to the police (20% reporting) than 18-24 year old non-student victims (33%), according to a recent DOJ survey. But it’s not because the students have become more reliant on alternative reporting channels, e.g., reporting to campus authorities; according to the DOJ survey, only 4% of campus rapes or sexual assaults are reported to “other officials” (i.e., someone in an official capacity other than the police, which would include college officials), while 14% of rapes and sexual assaults of non-students in the same age group are reported to other officials. Why all the non-reporting? Well, 26% of student and 23% of non-students say they didn’t report to the police because it’s a “personal matter,” which I take to mean it’s something they don’t want to become a public issue, whether out of shame or self-blame or concern about reputation or not wanting to re-live the trauma or simply because they think it’s something they can better handle on their own, without legal or institutional intervention Another 20% of students and an equal percentage of non-students say they fear reprisal by their attacker. 10% of students and an equal percentage of non-students say they didn’t want to get the offender in trouble with the law (presumably because 80% of all rapes and sexual assaults both of students and non-students are committed by someone known to the victim, which would also account for the high rate of fear of reprisal).
There are two striking differences between the student and non-student non-reporting groups, however. 19% of non-students say they didn’t report because they didn’t believe there was anything the police would or could do to help; in contrast, only 9% of students cited that as a reason. This seems to reflect a somewhat higher level of trust in the criminal justice process among students than among similarly-aged non-students, which perhaps shouldn’t be surprising when you consider that a higher percentage of 18-24 year old women not attending college are likely to be poor and/or racial minorities, groups which historically have a higher level of distrust of the police and vice versa. Also, 12% of college victims but only 5% of non-college victims said the matter was “not important enough” to report. This initially surprised and puzzled me. I would have expected college women to be generally more empowered on these issues, consequently more likely to see sexual assault as important. But there may be several things going on here. First, there may be less stigma attached to being a rape victim among college women; not to say they approve of or condone it, but some figure if it’s happened, it’s happened, no point dwelling on it or letting it define your life, but there may be lessons to be learned about how to avoid it in the future, so time to move on. This might be related to the somewhat higher percentage of college women who say they didn’t report because “it’s a personal matter.” Second, the rates of completed rape are significantly higher among non-student victims (40% of all sexual assaults) than among students (33%), so it’s possible that, having successfully fended off their attackers, more college women feel that the failed attempt at rape by some jackass male isn’t worth bothering reporting to the authorities; in short, they feel sufficiently empowered to handle such situations on their own.
All of this paints a far different picture than some posters here want to create, of an epidemic of consensual sexual relationships in which the disgruntled female then falsely accuses the male partner of rape by reporting to campus officials but not to the police. That picture is perfectly consistent with the accused rapist’s classic defense, but it just doesn’t square with the statistical profile compiled by DOJ. In fact, DOJ statistics say only 24% of campus rapes and sexual assaults by non-strangers involve an intimate partner (current or former boyfriend or girlfriend), compared to 34% of non-student rapes and sexual assaults, and the vast majority of campus rapes and sexual assaults are reported neither to the police nor to campus authorities. Erecting further barriers to investigation and disciplinary action in rape and sexual assault cases will do absolutely nothing to address the underlying problem here, which is an unacceptable incidence of campus rape and sexual assault.
If it’s a personal matter and someone doesn’t feel like it rises to the level of criminality then that is what it is. The college can offer counseling or whatever it is if that student decides at some point in time they do need to talk to someone. I don’t read anymore into a statement that it’s a personal matter other than it’s time for me to butt out of that person’s business unless they ask for help.
This percentage concerns me the most…what reprisal? Social embarrassment from having slept with someone they probably shouldn’t have (they might need counseling) Fear of physical assault? (they might need the police) This 20% needs scrutiny.
Well then in my opinion it wasn’t rape and probably needs a relationship therapist, or some personal counseling or some sort of mediation.
boggle
Really? Do you really mean that?? This is absolutely and utterly not the case. Whether those involved in a crime (whether perpetrator, victim, or bystander) believe it is a crime has absolutely no bearing on whether it actually is. I mean, if it weren’t the case, we wouldn’t have any laws—whether something was criminal or not would need to be determined each time something happened on a completely ad hoc basis.
Ok I will try very hard not be condescending here. In distinguishing between consensual sex and rape, obviously what she (the victim) believes about what took place is a very important thing, isn’t it?
Short answer: No.
Slightly longer answer: What really matters is what happened, and whether consent was given. The perception of whether consent was given isn’t actually an issue for whether a criminal act occurred or not.
“If it’s a personal matter and someone doesn’t feel like it rises to the level of criminality then that is what it is.”
So taking that ridiculous assumption to its logical conclusion- if a parent kills a child and the other parent isnt bothered by that, then it is NOT a crime??? Really???
wow. just wow!!
We’ve lost all common sense here. If two people have sex, and they both believe they gave consent, it doesn’t matter? Someone who wasn’t there, and therefore can never be completely sure of exactly what happened, can better determine whether it was consensual or not, even if she (the victim) believes it was consensual?
dfbdfb Listen to what loukydad is saying. It is nothing more and nothing less. If two people are involved in a fender-bender and they both decide not to call the police then I as a third party do not need to “call the police for them” because I think it’s “the right thing to do”. But one or both certainly CAN report it to the police who will investigate, issues tickets whatnot. Of course I’m firmly on record as feeling that people should report a rape to the police…firmly on record. But also it’s entirely up to an individual if they want to or not…not for me to decide for them. It’s not for me to decide as a third party to frame what happened for someone else. Only they can do that. Every state defines what constitutes criminal sexual behavior but if people don’t report it there is no mechanism to force police to investigate…you have to report…just like the two cars in the fender bender or really any criminal act…someone has to feel victimized and if they don’t feel victimized to the point they want to report then it’s no one’s business but their own.
Menlo It is silly and faulty logic to say that two parents engaged in killing their child is the same as two adults who go somewhere, start rubbing up together and have sex. I’m not sure why people would even try to make these strange nonsensical comparisons but they happen every time there is a thread.
menloparkmom - sorry but your attempted analogy is ridiculous.
The death a child or anyone else for that matter is a tragic thing, whether through natural causes, murder or otherwise.
Sex on the other hand, is hardly tragic. Many of us like it in fact and would not prefer not to see it outlawed. I would add that most of us would prefer not to have to get lawyers involved and execute a written contract in order to initiate it and give and receive our consent to it. And the primary thing that distinguishes consensual sex from rape is that the consent of both parties is involved. That she said yes, and that she believes that she meant it and therefore nothing criminal occurred, is a pretty important thing. The most important thing.
“If two people have sex, and they both believe they gave consent, it doesn’t matter?”
If one is a minor, then in some states it can be considered rape regardless.
Lets say a professor has consensual sex with an UG student, you think that would be OK?
Its not ok to the colleges!
Rules at colleges are for the protection of the students.
They can cover areas that outside of college that might or would not be illegal.
How about this case: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/opinions/levenson-sex-offender-registry-reform/?iid=ob_article_organicsidebar_expansion&iref=obnetwork
indicates we should say “awww” about “youthful mistakes of 19 year olds”…
It disgusts me by the way, to think that if a student is accused of raping another student, the police should NOT be called in, but if a faculty or staff member is accused of raping a student, the police SHOULD be called in.
What if a student is accused of raping a professor? Should the police be called in, or not? Are we protecting both students who are accused and students who are the accusers? Should we protect both?
Also, NY state has what appears to be a very good policy on “Yes is Yes” as well as many guidelines and best practices for colleges.
Note that the NY state police will have a sexual assault unit that is charged with helping colleges deal with sexual assaults.
(as a taxpayer, I cannot get why colleges would need to have a separate executive and judicial branch, it is like someone can get thrown out of school “only” for a sexual assault, but never be on a sex offender list. See the sad case of Ms. Graham…
Note Virginia’s response to this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/va-house-amends-sexual-predator-bill-that-responds-to-jesse-matthew-case/2015/04/16/c6781970-e43f-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html )
Saying you’re not going to report the matter to the police because “it’s a personal matter” is not the same as saying you don’t think it’s a crime. Rape is a crime whether the victim reports it or not, and I certainly think most college women know that—in fact, the women in DOJ’s survey are entirely women who self-identify as having been victims of rape or sexual assault. If they didn’t think they were victims of crime, they’d have simply said they were never raped or sexually assaulted, and they wouldn’t be in the survey. You may perfectly well understand that it’s a crime, but view it as a crime of an intimately personal nature that you just don’t want to discuss with police and prosecutors, much less hostile defense attorneys in an open courtroom, much less having it bandied about in the the news media and social media. So you keep it quiet.
Yeah, well, effectively no one has any choice but to “butt out” if the rape victim declines to report it to either the police or campus authorities. And I suppose there’s something to be said for that being the individual’s choice; in effect they’re saying, this is no one’s business but mine and I can keep it that way if I don’t report it. But there’s also something that troubles me about that. Many people used to feel the same way about domestic violence—“Oh, it’s a domestic matter, and it’s not a crime if the abused party doesn’t report it to the police.” Well, we now know that it IS a crime, and a very serious one, but a huge amount of domestic violence continues to go unreported, and that’s a very serious problem because in the vast majority of cases the abuser isn’t going to be stopped unless there’s some kind of outside intervention, and in many cases the abuse will only escalate. The reasons domestic violence is underreported are complex and challenging, just as with rape and sexual assault. But to cavalierly dismiss unreported rape, sexual assault, or domestic violence as “not a crime” and “nobody’s business” is just wildly inappropriate, in my opinion. There’s a reason these crimes are felonies, and if we don’t take them seriously it will only give aid and comfort to the parties committing the felonious acts.
Again, mind-boggling. Why would the rape victim’s decision not to seek a felony conviction that could send the perpetrator to prison for many years make it not a rape? I can imagine many scenarios in which this could happen. A and B are dating, they have too much to drink, A wants sex, B says no, A ignores B’s refusal and forces sex on her (or him; a non-trivial fraction of college rape victims are males raped by other males). They talk about it the next day, A admits he crossed a line, apologizes, promises never to do it again, B is satisfied that both the apology and the promise are sincere, and doesn’t want to destroy A’s life by having him sent to prison. I’m sorry, that’s still rape, and the decision not to report it out of sympathy for the perpetrator may or may not be a bad decision, but it doesn’t make it any less a rape. Or C and D were formerly in a relationship but C would like to get back together, comes around to D’s place, they talk, D says no, C becomes enraged and physically forces sex on an unwilling D; when it’s over D tells C she never wants to see him again and if he ever comes around to her place again she’ll call the cops. D knows it’s rape but she feels more pity and disdain for C than anger toward him and decides she doesn’t want to ruin his life by having him sent to the state penitentiary, so she decides not to report it—unless it happens again. Or E and F, casual acquaintances, are at a party, E tells F he’d like to “hook up” with her for casual sex, F says no, E tries to force himself on her, F punches him in the groin and as he crawls off whimpering F says, “Don’t ever try that again, &!@#$^.” Problem solved, F figures there’s no need to call the police because E has learned his lesson and doesn’t need to go to prison. There’s no completed rape in this last example, but there is a sexual assault that goes unreported.
I don’t know why you’re so eager to dismiss so many rapes as either non-rapes or somehow the victim’s fault.
Fear of physical assault is a real and powerful motivation for many, and reporting to the police doesn’t necessarily provide much assurance because the police aren’t going to provide 24/7 personal protection to the alleged victim and in most cases they won’t immediately arrest the alleged attacker, so a re-encounter with the rapist–or the rapist’s friends and frat brothers–is a real fear. But there are also other kinds of reprisals. The rapist could be an instructor, a TA, a coach, or an administrator who is in a prominent position and therefore is more likely to be believed, and/or has some kind of power over the victim’s academic standing or career (consider again the alleged Bill Cosby rapes). And these days social media can be a powerful medium for retaliation. I’m sure you’ve heard the term “slut-shaming,” when a girl or woman is singled out and portrayed as sexually promiscuous, sometimes with compromising photos taken. e,g, when she was passed out at a party and raped, then the rapists pile on with lurid social media posts, blaming the victim so as to deflect blame from their own criminal acts. There have been several highly publicized cases of this recently, including some that ended in the victim’s suicide. It goes well beyond “social embarrassment from having slept with someone they probably shouldn’t have.” It’s more like orchestrated character assassination, and it probably goes on in a lot more cases than those that make the news headlines.
How do I teach my teenage son to protect himself from mattress girl situations? (Beyond abstinence, that wonderful parental delusion)
This is not meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I am serious. I am at least as nervous for my teenage son when he leaves home as I am for my teenage daughter. I feel like I know how to give her advice to protect herself. I am struggling more to know what to tell my son these days.
@rhandco, in the first case of the 19 year old and the 14 year old, both the girl and the mother of the girl stated the young man shouldn’t be punished. The 14 year old admits to lying to the 19 year old about her age.
" They have been joined by the girl, who is now 15, and her mother, who have also defended Mr. Anderson, appearing in a District Court in Michigan this spring to ask a judge for leniency.
“I don’t want him to be a sex offender, because he really is not,” the mother said, according to court transcripts. Her daughter told the judge that she felt “nothing should happen to Zach,” adding, “If you feel like something should, I feel like the lowest thing possible.” "
The female lies and the male is punished for the crime he didn’t know he was committing. Justice in America.