<p>“They are elite because they overcame the highly selective process and as one of the benefits of winning the selective jackpot is that their futures are exceptionally promising. They are not elite because of their socio-economic backgrounds.”</p>
<p>Well, statistically it’s both, but I agree with your more general point. (A PC world is much, much better than one than ain’t! it is, after all, correct for a reason.)</p>
<p>One of my kids attended a college with common rooms. It was a bit of an issue in some rooms. </p>
<p>In my own kid’s freshman suite, it was basically the parents who were a pain in the neck. (PG version ;)!) One of the kids was from a very wealthy family and the PARENTS wanted to furnish the common room rather lavishly. The PARENTS of one of the other kids in the suite got upset. They weren’t expected to pay anything. The wealthier parents just wanted to go out and furnish the space. They didn’t expect anyone else to contribute and they got pretty angry when what they saw as a generous gesture offended the poorest parents. The poorest PARENTS felt that this was wrong and wanted to have the space furnished in a manner which would have limited spending to about $25 each. </p>
<p>Once the parents butted out, the kids didn’t have a problem. They candidly discussed how much they felt they could spend. My kid spent about $300 on a used coffee table, end table and micowave. (My kid knew I’d agree to the microwave 'cause the kid’s the world’s pickiest eater and is prone to get scarily thin when food is bad. No, no eating disorder, just a fussy eater.) Another kid spend about $150 on a rug and donated a used floor lamp from home. The poorest kid rented the fridge which was about $80 for a year. The wealthiest kid bought a very nice futon with frame which ran about $700. Each kid kept what that kid had paid for at the end of the year. </p>
<p>A “friend” from another board had a kid who went to the same school the same year. The other suitemates hated the kid within 24 hours and I do mean hated. The other 3 girls went out and furnished the room . The parents and the unpopular kid in the suite came back and found the girls trying to assemble the furniture…none too successfully. Aware that his own daughter hadn’t gotten off to a great start with her new suitemates and trying to change things around, dad helped out and after about 2 hours had the furniture assembled. After he did, he asked the new roommates how much it had cost and what his kid’s share was. Girls looked at him and said…oh, we weren’t going to ask her for anything because we all hope she’ll ask for a room transfer. Dad was very tempted to disassrmble furniture!</p>
<p>So, I’m not so sure the story is apocryphal…</p>
<p>Well, I guess we may not have that problem. S ended up volunteering to share a bunk bed. The double room is the same size as the singles, in other words, too small for two desks and bookcases. So S and roommate have their desks and bookcases in the common room. Since S is expecting to have tons of homework, he’ll be at his desk quite a lot, which ought to limit the use of the common room for social purposes. I’m keeping my fingers crossed S’s suitemates won’t feel like partying while S tries to study. In theory, there should be no reason for the kids to go out an buy expensive stuff, therefore.</p>
<p>My D’s common room was furnished from thrift store purchases and hand-me-downs from other students. It looked beautiful.</p>
<p>And yes, there were some suites with 52" TVs and leather couches.</p>
<p>D’s common room came furnished with TV, VCR, DVD player, microwave, club chairs and s small dinette set. I don’t see anyone taking things out of the room replacing it with other items as they live in a small 2-story house which means, if you remove stuff from the common room you may end up having to store it in your bedroom.</p>
<p>“this story may have been plausible at Princeton or several other so-called elite schools in the late 70s but I doubt very much that it could be written today.” Momrath, you hit the nail on the head. If you read the article, you find out that it was written the year John Lennon was assassinated – 1980. <a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200501/kirn[/url]”>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200501/kirn</a> Keep in mind that there was even a time when some Princeton housing was for wealthy students only. But what I hear about re common rooms at Princeton today is that a few very wealthy kids provide nice televisions and rugs for all the roommates (though most prefer being part of the group like everybody else), and some kids can provide very little and are up front about that, but for the most part everybody is going off to the Salvation Army and Home Depot and assembling a common room that looks inviting but certainly not fancy, with old sofas, etc. The Student Agencies, which is a student-run business, rents out loft beds, tv’s, fridges, etc. at fairly reasonable prices. And the bookstore sells huge, beautiful posters for $6.</p>
<p>At Harvard, as the freshmen pour into campus and the dorms fill up, a huge flea market of used furniture and other stuff materializes in the space between the Science Center and the Yard. It’s mostly upper classmen selling stuff to the frosh and to each other. You can find everything and anything you could possibly want to furnish common rooms. I thought it was great. With this system there should be no need for anyone to go out to expensivie stores to buy good common room furniture.</p>
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<p>Actually, the goods sold at that flea market were donated by students moving out at the end of the previous school year, and the proceeds of the sale go to a good cause (Habitat for Humanity, I think.)</p>
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I’m very glad to hear that the Princeton scene has changed significantly since the early 1980’s, even though to think of the early 80’s as ancient times makes me feel so very…ancient. But for the sake of accuracy, this article was not written in 1980, but was written about Kirn’s sojourn at Princeton up to and including his successful bid for a post-graduate fellowship that took him to Oxford after he graduated in 1983.</p>
<p>My daughter is very attracted to Princeton but has concerns about the eating club scene. I’ve not shown her the Atlantic article (yet) but I’ll be happy to relate to her the updated perspective of CC posters.</p>
<p>We’re concerned about the different socioeconomic stratifiers at different schools. I read the Atlantic article, too, and when we visited Princeton a year ago, our tour guide, who was on full scholarship, said she had not joined an eating club, because it was too expensive. She was generally very upbeat about Princeton, as I would have expected from a tour guide, but I was very concerned about the eating club scene after hearing her comment, and my D was bothered enough that Princeton dropped off her list. Perhaps this sort of economic division is present at all schools to some degree, but I suspect it is more apparent at certain ones. I would be especially interested in any comments regarding the issue at Brown and Yale.</p>
<p>One excellent piece of advice we can take from this is to never purchase items jointly. Each student can spend approximately the same amount, but each should “own” certain items. I can see how there would be end of year arguments over who gets the worn out chair vs who gets the TV.</p>
<p>My son also crossed Princeton off his list in part because of the eating clubs and his perception that the social scene was centered on privilege and money. He also wasn’t interested in a campus which was focused on Greeks.</p>
<p>Similar here.</p>
<p>I think the socio-economic stratification at many of these schools is greater than it was 30 years ago, although some of this is by happenstance. The gap between the wealthiest 5% of the population (which is essentially where you need to be to be able to afford full-freight at any of these schools, minimum income $155k or so), and the "middle of the middle class - roughly $55k a year, is greater than at any time in 3 decades, and increasing (and since most full-freight customers are not at the minimum, likely more.) In other words, the “middle class” student with a $155k family income is roughly 3 times richer than the “middle class” one, and if one took into account assets, probably multiples of that. As list prices rise, the income necessary to afford to pay them goes up as well, so that without a specific concerted effort on the part of the college, all other things remaining the same, the gap between haves and have-nots among the student body rises over time. This trend is likely to continue, though with increasing amounts of small “need-based” scholarships being offered to families on the 5% edge, who are, as good consumers, looking elsewhere to spend their educational dollars. </p>
<p>I expect there will come a point when Princeton tackles the eating clubs, much as Williams tackled a very heavily entrenched fraternity system four decades ago. (I mean, what does it mean to be on “full scholarship” and be blocked from participating in one of the major benefits of the institution, which is future networking with the wealthy and powerful? As I’ve said elsewhere, I DON’T think they should restrict the entry of the wealthy and powerful; rather make sure that all have access to them.)</p>
<p>Ramblin, thanks for the correction. I knew that but misspoke. </p>
<p>Re the eating clubs, keep in mind that Princeton’s fees are the lowest in the Ivies as of my last checking. Thus when my kid was looking at joining an eating club, we found that the cost of room plus club was the same as room and board at Brown. </p>
<p>Mini, Princeton has already been “tackling” the eating clubs in a big way. First, it is about to open another residential college and to create several four-year colleges. As a result, much of the campus will not choose to join an eating club. Second, the Frist campus center, which is incredibly successful and popular, was built to create a student center that would be an alternative to the clubs. Third, the university has started holding some classes in the clubs. Fourth, it is subsidizing free meals to sophomores who would like to enjoy different ones. </p>
<p>Re financial aid, the difficulty is that the clubs are private entities. The university does not want to be in the position of subsidizing them. Therefore it offers a subsidized loan for any student, to make up the difference between the cost of on-campus board and the club fees. This usually comes out to $2,000 a year. However, as I’ve said, Princeton’s fees are lower than those at many other similar schools to begin with. And remember that Princeton’s financial aid package does not include a loan; loans are replaced with grants. </p>
<p>To the parents whose kids are hesitant: students I know who have spent time on campus at other schools say that at Princeton social life is cheap by comparison. Why? Well, as a junior or senior you pay your club fees and you have unlimited access to a social center in a beautiful building – including food, various games, dances, bands, etc. At other schools students spend as much or more going out to dinner, bars, etc. And freshmen and sophomores, who are too young to join a club, hang out at them, enjoy concerts by great bands during houseparties in the spring, dance to dj’s, etc., and pay nothing. </p>
<p>Although it is true that Princeton has some very wealthy students, I don’t agree that the clubs are all about money and privilege. The key to social life at Princeton is to be friendly and outgoing and to get involved in at least one extracurricular group pretty seriously. Once you do that, you find your niche on campus and in an eating club. </p>
<p>The only thing we have found somewhat expensive is the cost of clothing for the several formal dances, but many of the girls trade clothes and we have availed ourselves of Filene’s Basement. 
I know there are formal dances at Harvard, UVA, etc., so I don’t think this is a cost unique to Princeton.</p>
<p>I think it’s nice that Princeton is providing some alternatives to the eating clubs, but for some kids it won’t be much of a choice if they can’t afford the eating clubs in the first place. I understood that there was some variation in cost among the eating clubs, too, but that again doesn’t provide real choice to those who are less well off financially. That Princeton’s fees are generally lower than those at other Ivies is good to know. Since financial aid offers are based upon expenses at that particular school, so I’m not sure how much difference that would make to a student who gets financial aid. </p>
<p>I think it’s definitely a good thing to explore how much of overall entertainment expenses are included in the figures the colleges give for estimating costs. I think with the LACs I’m familiar with, like Williams, there isn’t too much that isn’t included. If the entertainment costs at Princeton are included in the eating club fees, that’s probably good for those who can afford the clubs, but I still wonder about the exclusion of those who can’t. It sounds like the situation at Princeton may be better than at some places, though. I remember one of my high school friends who went to Georgetown was frequently talking about how there were those who could afford to go out to eat, drink and shop in Georgetown and those who couldn’t and how it created a social divide. </p>
<p>I do realize that there will always be those who want to be exclusive and want to associate mainly with others of their socio-economic class. I guess it disappoints me that college students would be dealing with those issues. For some of them, it may well be a sad realization that merit is not as helpful as they had been led to believe. I think my own kids will be happiest where fellow students’ socio-economic status is not so obvious. Anyhow, I certainly don’t mean to pick on Princeton alone. I think there are other schools where my kids may not be too comfortable, and I’m interested in learning about the atmosphere at the ones that might be more appealing.</p>
<p>The idea that students ought to be sheltered from the realization that life is not only about merit but also about one’s capacity to relate to others on a social level does not make much sense to me. At any Ivy-type school, a poor student will notice that she or he is not among the wealthy. When I was a scholarship student at another Ivy, I happened to be sitting at a table in the cafeteria once with a member of the Dupont family and several of his wealthy friends. Not noticing me at their table, they were all complaining that the scholarship students were dragging the school down. After that the conversation changed to their trips home that weekend by helicopter. It was one of the most unpleasant experiences I had in college, and I have never forgotten it. I know Princeton students of various backgrounds and find that this kind of disrespectful behavior is considered totally unacceptable. Wealthy students who are obnoxious are seen as such. Less well-off students who try to ingratiate themselves with the wealthy are also not appreciated. </p>
<p>I know students at some of the supposedly most desirable eating clubs and, given the context of an Ivy League school, they are from a wide variety of socioeconomic backgrounds. And any student applying to Princeton starting next year can simply stay in a residential college for four years and happily ignore the eating clubs, just as many Harvard students do to finals clubs. </p>
<p>However, the clubs are not so much about students “who want to be exclusive and want to associate mainly with others of their socio-economic class” or about who your parents are. Instead the students group by interest and personal style, for example, the varsity athletes who play water sports, the freaks, the government and journalism types, another group of varsity athletes, the creative and quirky intellectuals, the heavy drinkers. Students do not spend all their time in one club, but move from one to another. </p>
<p>Here is an interesting article from a Harvard publication on Princeton’s eating clubs: <a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/fmarchives/fm_03_18_1999/article6A.html[/url]”>http://www.thecrimson.com/fmarchives/fm_03_18_1999/article6A.html</a> (The university’s alcohol policy has changed dramatically since this was written.)</p>
<p>Oh, I don’t really advocate sheltering kids from the knowledge that who you know and who your family is play a part in the social structure of this country. At the same time, if there’s a school where the atmosphere is especially unpleasant (like where you overheard those conversations, aparent5), it’d be nice to know going in to the situation what it would be like. And it would be nice to know that there were alternatives where students weren’t like that. There are so many other issues to deal with in college that I think it would be nice to avoid that one, if possible.</p>
<p>I don’t think you can avoid unpleasant folks. Some are obnoxious over money, some over turf, some over looks, etc…
One of the hidden costs of college, even if the college subsidizes most of the activities concerns clothing. If a student wants to participate in concerts; attend a formal or semi-formal event, try out some sports, etc…, the student will need to purchase appropriate gear. Another cost is for off-campus entertainment.</p>
<p>Here are some articles that don’t paint a pretty picture:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~in/april05/braun.htm[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~in/april05/braun.htm</a> (Why is “privilege” misspelled!?)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/14-0511/features2.html[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_new/PAW04-05/14-0511/features2.html</a></p>
<p>Fiction? We came home one day to find our common fence on one side of our yard had been torn down, and workers tromping through our backyard. One of our neighbors had decided to replace all of their fences with a slightly different style (which didn’t match our fences, of course.) After the new fence was installed (without ever consulting us) they sent their contractor over with a “bill” for $1200 for us to pay “our share” of the cost of the new fence. These are middle aged people with kids and a six figure income, in an expensive neighborhood. Somehow I doubt that this type of behavior is as common among people who don’t feel that they’re as “special” as my neighbors and Kirn’s roommates - but there definitely are those people who don’t feel the need to consider anyone but themselves, and who are sincerely offended when others fail to recognize their god given right to do whatever they want - and have others pay for it.</p>