<p>@woody35
Concerning the math class: it IS mandatory to take one. Please see the General Education link you provided and look under the analytical reasoning requirement.</p>
<p>Earlham students take one course carrying a minimum of three credit hours, choosing from a list of designated classes in either Abstract or Quantitative Reasoning. Characteristics of an Abstract Reasoning Class:
They focus substantially on properties of classes of abstract models and operations that apply to them.
They provide experience in generalizing from specific instances to appropriate classes of abstract models.
They provide experience in solving concrete problems by a process of abstraction and manipulation at the abstract level. Typically this experience is provided by word problems which require students to formalize real-world problems in abstract terms, to solve them with techniques that apply at that abstract level, and to convert the solutions back into concrete results. Characteristics of a Quantitative Reasoning Class
Using and interpreting formulas, graphs and tables.
Representing mathematical ideas symbolically, graphically, numerically and verbally.
Using mathematical and statistical ideas to solve problems in a variety of contexts.
Using simple models such as linear dependence, exponential growth or decay, or normal distribution.
Understanding basic statistical ideas such as averages, variability and probability.
Making estimates and checking the reasonableness of answers.
Recognizing the limitations of mathematical and statistical methods.</p>
<p>Does it specifically say math? No…but taking a class with “statistical ideas,” “interpreting formulas,” “word problems,” and/or “representing mathematical ideas” sounds an awful lot like a math class to me.</p>
<p>Personally, I’d hate for future students to get the idea that Earlham is ALWAYS responsive to prospective, admitted, or current students, especially when I know from personal experience that this is not the case. Obviously I am not you, so I cannot vouch for these “great experiences” you and other students have had with the administration. However, I can state that my experience has been quite the opposite. Am I an exception to the rule? I don’t know. Still, I believe that prospective students deserve to know about this. While you may have had a great experience with administration, this is apparently NOT the case for EVERYONE.</p>
<p>There’s a big difference between pure mathematics and courses which have applied math in them. You can take many different courses outside of the math department that fill those requirements. A couple courses fill both at the same time (Ecological Biology), and so you can take that course plus any 3 credit course in the sciences (could be a discussion based course with zero math or exams) and have both of those requirements fulfilled.</p>
<p>So no, it’s not required to take a math course.</p>
<p>Could you provide a (redacted) example of a negative interaction you’ve had with faculty here? In my experience it’s very rare that people have problems getting answers from the administration in the manner that you have.</p>
<p>Once I called because I wanted to know whether I would be able to take Poetry as a second semester sophomore. Adm: Im not sure what number is it? Me: Theres a 308 in front of it. It says in the course guide you guys sent me that the Earlham seminar and an Interpretive Practices course are a prerequisite. But since you guys are just doing the Earlham Seminar now, Im wondering how that would work. Would I be able to take the Poetry class my second semester at Earlham? Adm: Um I dont really know. You dont have to take BOTH courses to take poetry; you just have to take either an Earlham Seminar or Interpretive Practice course. But now that were just doing the Earlham Seminar, Im not sure how that would work. I think you would need permission from the professor. Me: Oh. Adm: 300 classes are really reserved for juniors and seniors. Its unlikely that a freshman would be able to get in one. You should really just focus on your general education requirements your first year.</p>
<p>About a week later I called and spoke to someone else. Me: Since Im a freshman, does that put me at a disadvantage for getting into upper level 300 and 400 classes? Adm: Not at all! You just need permission from the professor. Me: So Im not less likely to get into a 300 or 400 class because Im a freshman? Adm: No; those classes are catered towards juniors and seniors, so they are a bit more challenging. However, your class year plays no part on whether or not you can take the class.</p>
<p>Then there was the time I called someone at NSO. Our conversation went like this: Me: Im flying out and so I plan on picking everything up once I actually get there. I dont have my driving license yet, so my moms wondering if shell have to come out with me to drive me to the store so I can pick up some things. NSO: Thats a good idea. Since you dont have a car, the earliest you would be able to pick things up at the store would be Sunday during NSO when were all going to Walmart. But thats pretty late Me (looking at orientation schedule): Yeah, thats really late. Also, I really dont want to be sleeping on my bed for two nights without sheets or a mattress cover or anything NSO: Thats understandable.
A few days later my mom called Earlham to ask some questions. After she was done, she told me that Earlham said Id be able to go to Walmart anytime I wanted, because they had a shuttle or something running the entire first day of NSO. (A big thanks to woody35 for clarifying that with the bus schedule link :))</p>
<p>Ive called various times to ask about science and math courses. My question is always the same: Me: Do I have to take a math or science course my first year at Earlham?
These are some of the various answers I have received from different people: Adm: I dont know. Adm: Ummm…I don’t think so, but I’m not positive. Adm: You must take a math course and two science courses before you graduate. Adm: We dont require a math course. Adm: The Earlham Seminar is required of all first year students. <em>Gives me a description of the course</em> Adm: You should talk to your adviser about it. Adm: It depends everything will make a lot more sense once you get here!
A simple yes or no would suffice for this question.</p>
<p>Oh, and this is probably the worst conversation Ive had with administration: Me: Hi, my name is _____ and Im going to be a first year student at Earlham in the fall. I was wondering if I have to take any math or science courses my first year. Adm: You have to complete the general education requirements before you graduate. Me: I know, but do I have to take any math or science courses my first year? Adm: You do have to take the Earlham Seminar first year. That class is required of all incoming students. <em>What follows sounds like a paraphrasing of the class description on their website</em> Me (interrupting halfway through the description): Yes, I know I have to take the Earlham Seminar, but do I have to take any math or science courses my first year? Adm (short pause): It depends. Your adviser will discuss everything with you during New Student Orientation. Everything will make a lot more sense then.</p>
<p>If you have not yet read Kafka, you should. You have essentially written one of his stories with your experience. It is odd, to me at least, that his tragic-comic stories of the nightmares of bureaucracies are not included with student orientation packets. It would at least make it a little bit more literary to go through this. Orson Wells and Soderbergh have done some interesting things with Kafka too.
Sorry, I just remembered the best film version of this perfection of bureaucracy is Terry Gilliam’s brilliant “Brazil”. Not the one with a happy ending tho.</p>
<p>Broaden your mind a bit…none of that stuff means math. Quantitative reasoning, sure, but the abstract reasoning requirement is not necessarily math. I was curious, so I browsed some of Earlham’s departments, and I found a couple of non-math, non-science courses that filled the Abstract Reasoning or Quantitative Requirement:</p>
<p>PHIL 130: Symbolic Logic
ECON 101: Introduction to Macroeconomics
ECON 103: Introduction to Microeconomics
PSY 342L Experimental Psychology</p>
<p>Not many, but there are also some science classes that have quantitative elements in them that will satisfy the requirement (like in computer science, environmental science, astronomy, etc.) I think that you would be hard-pressed to find a college that doesn’t require you to take ANY math or science courses. The only one I can think of is Brown. Most colleges require you to take a class in each, unless you use AP credits to get out of it. And you don’t have to take any of these your first year; you can use the time to take some major courses instead.</p>
<p>So the answer is that you are required to take a science course at Earlham but you aren’t required to take it in your first year. You could’ve easily answered that yourself by checking the website. The reason it “depends” is because it depends on what your major is and your other plans. You didn’t reveal that information to the administrator officer, and they didn’t want to tell you anything wrong. If you are a computer science major, then you probably have to; as an English major, then you won’t. It also depends on what office you called. Not everyone in every office at the school knows every single detail about the school, and if you called the admissions office, then they don’t know.</p>
<p>As for the two different answers, that’s not evidence of incompetence. The answer to your question is going to vary by professor and department. Some professors will say no to you if you don’t have the prerequisites at all. Some professors will allow seniors who haven’t taken the prerequisite to take the class, but not a first-semester freshman. And some professors will let anyone talk their way into the class. Saying “I don’t know” is not a sign of incompetence; no one is going to be able to tell you whether you would be able to take the poetry class your second semester. It depends on whether it’s offered and whether the professor gives you permission to take it. Whether freshman can take 300/400 level classes will also depend on the department. I think that a freshman trying to take a 300 level class is a bit too ambitious.</p>
<p>I also think that you are trying too hard to decide everything before you get there. I think it’s relatively unusual for students to know their entire class schedule before they set foot on campus. You’re a freshman and you don’t know how to “do” college yet. Most responsible schools would require you to meet with an advisor first so they can put you on the right path and consult with you about the classes you need for your future plans. You’re trying to put the cart before the horse.</p>
<p>As for the seminar, most LACs have something like that, as others have pointed out. And if you really want to be an English professor, first of all you need to get used to jumping through flaming hoops, and second of all the writing and critical thinking skills will be invaluable. I had a similar required class my first year and it was one of my favorite classes at my LAC. It really teaches you to think critically and engage in serious discussion with peers.</p>
<p>I think that you’re blowing things out of proportion and your disappointment about not getting into your other schools is coloring your vision of Earlham. The things you dislike about the school seem nitpicky as well. My college didn’t have the best food, but I had a great academic and social experience there and when I reflect back 4 years later, the last thing I am thinking about is the food. So you have to decide whether you actually want to go to Earlham. I guess the other question is, would you rather go to Earlham or your public state flagship? Because you said if you don’t get into Smith again next year, you’d probably go there. (FYI: your state’s flagship will almost certainly require a math and a science course, although not in your first year).</p>
<p>Personally, I think you should go and have a great first year and then transfer to Smith (where you will be required to take a math course, btw: Students, in consultation with their advisers, are expected to select a curriculum that has both breadth and depth, engages with cultures other than their own, and develops critical skills in writing, public speaking, and quantitative reasoning.). You’re expecting to do everything so fast when you probably should, in fact, just wait until you get there.</p>
<p>@julliet
Saying that these courses are non-math, non-science is debatable. I took AP Macro and AP Micro this past year (ironically they were not listed under math). At first it was just a bunch of vocab…but after the first month and a half, it became nothing but a bunch of mumbo-jumbo equations, word problems, and graphs being thrown at you at supersonic speed. And then I ended up failing the one class because I suck at math, especially word problems :(</p>
<p>I also took AP Psychology my junior year, which basically gave me a rundown of various branches in psychology. From what I could tell, Experimental Psychology was exactly like the first semester of my AP Stats class…only psychology themed. However, I would agree that this probably less math focused than a lot of other classes.</p>
<p>Symbolic Logic actually sounds pretty interesting. This sounds like it would be a lot more discussion based than mathematically based. Thank you for pointing these courses out!</p>
<p>The majority of colleges I applied to would not let me use AP classes for GE requirements Would you mind naming some universities (besides public state ones) that do?</p>
<p>My only problem with the seminar was that I was wondering if Quakerism was going to be pushed on me. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and I respect that. However, I really abhor it when people try to convert me to something. (Turns out that this does not seem to be the goal of the class; ECAdmStudent has clarified that Earlham does not try to convert their students.)</p>
<p>I guess some of the things that turned me off from Earlham might seem rather “nitpicky” to some people. However, for me these are legitimate points. For someone who really wanted to attend a women’s college, you can understand how men using the women’s restroom might be a big turn off. As for the other things, look at it from my standpoint: I’m paying almost 4 times my family’s yearly income to go to a place that I really don’t want to go to, that has things that I specifically did NOT want in a college and tried to avoid when researching where to apply (I pulled my safety schools out of a hat, so I didn’t research them at all until after I got rejected from my other schools), will not let me take the one class I was really looking forward to, and gives me contradictory answers. So from my viewpoint, it seems meaningless to pay money for this.</p>
<p>As for Smith, as far as I known I am not required to take a math course. I’ve been under the impression that Smith is a lot like Brown. According to their website, the only class that Smith actually REQUIRES you to take is a first year writing seminar. Sure, I may be expected to select a curriculum with a quantitative reasoning course, but it’s not under their requirements. Therefore, since I doesn’t say a quantitative course is required to graduate, I don’t have to take a math or science course in order to graduate. As least that’s my reasoning. Please correct me if this is wrong. My interviewer also told me that I wouldn’t have to take math or science to graduate.</p>
<p>@ the women’s bathroom thing, which building are you supposed to live in? Hoerner doesn’t have that problem by any means, as the floors are split by gender. For the other buildings, just let the RA know about your concerns and they can take care of the problem if it arises (which it probably won’t. I’ve never seen anyone use the “incorrect” restroom)</p>
<p>To be honest, I do think that you should do at least one year here. Assuming you do well in your courses, it will actually help your chances to get into a school that’s more like what your ideal is. Additionally, there is a good chance that you’ll come here and love it - assuming you maintain a fairly positive attitude </p>
<p>There are a /lot/ of factors in play here though. I personally don’t think your rationale for a gap year is compelling enough to take a year off, but my values and needs may be different than yours. Also remember that my impression of the college is colored - on the one hand I know the college well and I think that there are many things about it that you would love, but on the other hand since I love it so much I can be blind to some of its downsides.</p>
<p>Ultimately, you should make your own decision - just make sure that you have the correct information so you can make a /good/ one. Additionally, regardless of which path you take, there will be advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I don’t see how taking a gap year will dramatically help your chances at getting into Smith. I could be wrong about this, but I think that you have a much better shot if you attend Earlham for a year and do well. Someone more knowledgeable than I about the transferring process should weigh in about this.</p>
<p>It’s mandatory to take one class that fulfills EITHER the analytical reasoning or the quantitative reasoning requirement. My kid plans to take an econ class for that requirement since that same class also fulfills another core requirement for one of her majors. Yes, there’s some math included in an econ class. Real life also includes math.</p>
<p>After having 4 years of science in HS, including two pre-IB and two IB science courses, my kid isn’t too interested in college science classes. She plans to take the ecological biology class (and lab) mentioned up thread since it’s similar to lots of stuff she already had in HS so she feels she won’t be needing to learn tons of new science concepts while also trying to focus on all her other classes. As already mentioned, this is another way for her to fulfill the one AR/QR requirement at Earlham. She’s also looking at the Geo Hazards class for her other non-lab science requirement. </p>
<p>BTW, I gave you the bus shuttle link for a city bus line. According to info I’ve seen (probably on their web site), Earlham also has some regularly scheduled visits to local stores that they use their own college-owned shuttle vans for. It’s good to know that the Sunday night shuttle run to Walmart isn’t the first one happening during orientation!</p>
Would you mind naming some universities (besides public state ones) that do?</p>
</p>