<p>honesty…please…the man is a jerk, a liar, a buffoon, incompetent, and a puppet, to just get started</p>
<p>please what will his legacy be, besides war…there has got to be something</p>
<p>ff- honesty is saying what his legacy will be…tell me,besides 9-11, what does he have…nada</p>
<p>In the spirit of the holidays and bipartisanship, I wish for my child’s role model:</p>
<p>Jimmy Carter for his committment to peace, his compassion and generosity of spirit
Ronald Regan for his rhetorical skills
George Bush I for his basic decency and skills as a consensus builder
Bill Clinton for his intellect and charisma
. . . and I’m sorry, but even in my best holiday spirits . . . I can’t think of a single quality that I’d want my child to emulate in George W.</p>
<p>Clinton or Carter–both very smart guys.</p>
<p>Boy - reading these posts is making my PC fall off the left side of my lap it’s leaning so far.</p>
<p>Yes, it does seem that way. There are some very bright and academically accomplished Republicans out there. Bush just doesn’t seem to be one of them.</p>
<p>“I can’t think of a single quality that I’d want my child to emulate in George W.”</p>
<p>He’s in very good shape. I wish I were as physically fit at 30 as he is at 50! I would want my child to emulate his good exercise habits.</p>
<p>“… you mistake “love” for wanting to set the record straight from those like you whose “hatred” for the man exceeds all bounds of honesty.”</p>
<p>And the Republicans didn’t rabidly despise Clinton while he was in office? His lapse in judgement was disgusting, but not nearly as immoral or murderous as what our current president has done. I think we have a right to despise him.</p>
<p>GWB as a role model???</p>
<p>Well yeah, if you’d like to coast through life relying on your family connections.</p>
<p>“have little patience debating the subject with someone who holds the beliefs that you do.”</p>
<p>I did not have those beliefs until recently - about 6 months ago. However, I felt this way about bush for the past 6 years. In fact, until about 6 months ago, I thought 911 conspiracy theorists were wacko, just like you do now. As much as I disliked bush, I argued in his favor - no way could the govt. have been complicit in 911 - clearly the hijackers did it. It was just SO obvious!</p>
<p>So you see, my opinion of bush as a ‘president’ has nothing to do with my beliefs about 911.</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m not interested in debating with someone who has not read ‘Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11’ by theologian David Ray Griffin:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Faith-Truth-Behind-Reflection/dp/0664231179/sr=1-1/qid=1166583262/ref=sr_1_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Faith-Truth-Behind-Reflection/dp/0664231179/sr=1-1/qid=1166583262/ref=sr_1_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books</a></p>
<p>from description:</p>
<p>“…In Chapter 7 he first shows how the U.S. Empire is remarkably similar to the Roman Empire of 2000 years ago in its sense of divine authorization, its overwhelming military power, its use of terror to intimidate, its use of puppet rulers in countries under its control, and its exaction of “tribute and taxation” from subordinate populations. He then shows that Jesus of Nazareth, the central historical personage for Christians to this day, was the founder of an “anti-imperial gospel” that called upon his compatriots to resist the oppression and idolatry of the Roman Empire…” </p>
<p>some reviews:</p>
<p>“Do American Christians want the United States to act like the New Rome, invading other countries to impose its imperial rule and its control of other peoples’ resources? That is just what the U.S. is doing, increasingly so since 9/11, explains David Griffin. In this gripping summary of evidence for the truth behind 9/11 and the 9/11 Commission report, Griffin makes a compelling case that the imperial practices of the American government have become a destructive force in the world. And he clarifies the biblical and theological basis for Christians to challenge the resurgent American imperialism that often claims divine blessing on its destructive actions.”</p>
<p>—Richard A. Horsley, Distinguished Professor of Liberal Arts and the Study of Religion, University of Massachusetts, and author of Jesus and Empire: The Kingdom of God and the New World Disorder </p>
<p>“…if you are open to the grace of honest inquiry and the risk of following the historical Jesus in confronting the evils of empire, this rigorously argued book is a MUST READ.”</p>
<p>—Ray McGovern, CIA veteran analyst now with Tell the Word, a project of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour, Washington, D.C.</p>
<hr>
<p>I invite (and challenge) any Christians on this forum to be serious seekers of truth and pray tonight about whether you should read this book. Then read it.</p>
<p>“As far as “firing” that person - the American public (this is still a democracy, remember) did the opposite when they decided to re-hire Bush for another 4 years.”</p>
<p>THAT, of course, is highly debatable. In fact, it is debatable whether he ever even got honestly ‘hired’ in the first place. (Can you say ‘Diebold’?)</p>
<p>“Jimmy Carter for his committment to peace, his compassion and generosity of spirit
Ronald Regan for his rhetorical skills
George Bush I for his basic decency and skills as a consensus builder
Bill Clinton for his intellect and charisma
. . . and I’m sorry, but even in my best holiday spirits . . . I can’t think of a single quality that I’d want my child to emulate in George W.”</p>
<p>Well said!</p>
<hr>
<p>“And the Republicans didn’t rabidly despise Clinton while he was in office? His lapse in judgement was disgusting, but not nearly as immoral or murderous as what our current president has done. I think we have a right to despise him.”</p>
<p>Well said! Whenever I ask someone why they HATE Clinton all they can come up with is that he lied about the affair. My response to that is that he was trying to protect his marriage and it was none of anyone else’s business besides Hillary’s. Anyway, a lie about a PERSONAL issue is not even remotely in the same league as STARTING A WAR UNDER FALSE PRETENSES in terms of its lack of morality.</p>
<p>We’ve had LOTS of presidents who had affairs. I am NOT condoning such behavior - personally I think cheating on one’s spouse is despicable - but still, the only person who should have cared was Hillary. And she decided to stand by her man. (Meanwhile, lots of Republicans espousing ‘family values’ have divorced their wives for younger, prettier women. What hypocrites.) Bottom line is, right or wrong, it happens. That does not make him a bad president. It has no bearing on his ability to do his job. </p>
<p>Would you fire the CEO of a very successful corporation if you found out he was cheating? If so, then get ready to fire a LOT of CEOs!</p>
<p>Fire your preacher for cheating, but not a CEO or a president.</p>
<p>Right now, there are rumors about gw and Condi. True? Who knows? Who knows how many other presidents have cheated. Clinton just happened to get caught, is all.</p>
<p>Whenever I ask someone why they hate Hillary so much, they never have an answer either. They HATE Hillary! </p>
<p>At least those of us who dislike bush are quite forthcoming in providing our reasons.</p>
<p>Good grief leal. Condi is also rumored to be gay. I snorted out loud at that little Bush/Condi innuendo of yours…lol!</p>
<p>And I hold my president to the highest standard, which means the wrongs of Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, etc… are not to be brushed under the carpet. But, I also believe they are all human. If you can forgive one, you can forgive the others.</p>
<p>Here is why I don’t respect Hillary. She is ambitious above all things. I believe she is inebriated with power and doesn’t have an altruistic bone in her body. I don’t hate her. But I don’t think she truly wants to serve in order to change the things she thinks are wrong with our society. I think she wants to be the first woman president for the same reason some people apply to Harvard…to say she did it. I worry there is no compromise she won’t make to sate her ambition. I also don’t like this about a lot of other politicians. Hillary is not special in that respect, or in my book.</p>
<p>Just for the record, I have no idea whether the bush/Condi thing is true, and I think I even said that. I was just trying to make the point that we really just never know and cannot assume that bush is necessarily free of the immoralities that Clinton was guilty of. And, even if bush’s marital record is spotless (and I do mean this with all sincerity - my impression has always been that he and Laura seemed genuinely happy as a couple) meaning that he is not guilty of that particular immorality, he is certainly guilty of others, which are far worse, imo.</p>
<p>Regarding forgiveness: Sure, we can FORGIVE. But that doesn’t mean we should let him continue to mess up this country and cost more lives for his arrogance. The guy never even admits to any mistakes!!! Maybe if he admitted to some mistakes and tried to correct them, we might be more forgiving. </p>
<hr>
<p>ldmom, I actually agree with you completely about Hillary. I don’t hate her for it, because I think all politicians have some degree of ambition and thirst for power. Hers is more pronounced because of the added element of being the first woman. I do agree on this point. I don’t think that would necessarily make her a bad president, and I don’t think it entirely explains why so many Repubs detest her so much. But thanks for explaining your opinion - I think you must be the first person to actually give me a reason for not liking her!</p>
<p>I actually oppose Hillary running. I think she would polarize the country too much and it’s already so polarized, that we need someone who can unite us. Too many people will always hate her. We need someone new who does not have any haters.</p>
<p>I’m voting for Obama!</p>
<p>Count me in for Obama. Or Edwards. But definitely not Hillary. I agree that she’s both fiercely ambitious and a polarizing force in America today. While I think she’s highly intelligent, I’ve been uncomfortable with her for some time–particularly with her long-time support of Bush’s immoral war. …</p>
<p>I agree. Obama, otoh, has been against the war from the beginning. </p>
<p>There is no comparison between Hillary and Obama.</p>
<p>OBAMA 08!</p>
<p>Do you people read what you write? Shameless pigs. I’m sure I’ll be gone in the morning. If not, I’m gone on my own volition. What a bunch of *******s! Enjoy the echo chamber.</p>
<p>Let me be the first to welcome you back from, Brown, I surmise?</p>
<p>English your intended major?</p>
<p>"Shameless pigs. "</p>
<p>huh? Explain, please.</p>
<p>Given the chance, my uber-conservative husband will vote for Obama. And his uber-liberal parents will also vote for Obama. We actually had peace and harmony around the Thanksgiving table for the first time in decades. Now there’s a ‘uniter’! </p>
<p>(Personally, I’m still in research mode.)</p>
<p>That’s exactly what I mean. Obama does not have the ‘emotional charge’ that Hillary has. Too many people hate Hillary. I doubt that many, if any Repubs would even consider voting for her, but they might vote for Obama.</p>
<p>My first impression of Obama was his electrifying speech at the Democratic Convention in 04. Electrifying is the word! Passion, intelligence, humor, balanced view, he seems to have it all.</p>
<p>We need more than just good policy, though we need that too of course. We need someone who will INSPIRE the American people. I don’t think we’ve had that since JFK. Clinton did that to a degree, but it was lopsided (people either were inspired or they hated him).</p>
<p>Obama is the first candidate I’ve seen, of either party, that seems to have the qualities to be able to inspire ALL of us.</p>