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<p>It wouldn’t be necessary if people actually protested in a civilized manner. What a fine example of democracy, don’t you think?</p>
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<p>so much for democracy.</p>
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<p>Violent Tibetans! Blasphemy! Ahem.</p>
<p>I would hardly call James Miles of The Economist magazine, as well as numerous other foreign tourists, agents of the Chinese media. And Western media is so atrociously slanted its ironic you’d make a sarcastic statement as such.</p>
<p>1of42,
They are present, just not at the level we have but I am pretty sure it’s no less than many countries, including those in the middle east, of which, couple are US allies. Believe it or not, China’s constitution actually enshrines rights to freedom of assembly and speech. But then the government would say you can be punished for <em>slandering</em>. The Chinese do have “certain” freedom of assembly; Tiennaman Sq incident would never happen if they didn’t have it because the students wouldn’t be there in the first place. Nowadays, the government is very worried about any assembly in that same area of course but assesmbly elsewhere is possible, esp if it’s not about overthrowing the Party. So it’s not a matter of if they have it but to what extent and what the limit of the government patience is.</p>
<p>You won’t get arrested just because you write the president is a jerk on the internet.</p>
<p>By the way, I don’t think Singapore is that much better in this regard and have you ever heard of anyone talking about Singapore?</p>
<p>I am not sayiong NOT to carry the flags, but the VERY flags represent oppresion and a tolitatarian government…I get creeped and angry when I see Nazi flags, or KKK flags, or Soviet flags…having strong feelings and getting disgusted by that flag is not antidemocracy, in fact it is quite the opposite</p>
<p>jhg, are you proud of the Communist flag they are carrying and do you celebrate all it represents?</p>
<p>, and if you don’t think the thugs insticated alot of the villolence, read some news beside the beijing press</p>
<p>as for slanted, egad, even republicans are saying Bush should boycot the Olympics</p>
<p>you can defend Chinese policies until the cows come home, doesn’t make it right</p>
<p>as for democracy, can someone in China do ANYHTING CLOSE to what we can do here?</p>
<p>don’t much think so</p>
<p>And China is using the Olymoics like a giant propoganda machine- hmmm- when did that happen before–</p>
<p>I am boycotting it happyily, will not watch one minute of it…the idea of supporting china in this makes me ill</p>
<p>Seems the Chinese Consolate is running this “show” and handpicked the people allowed at the closing ceremony</p>
<p>ANd that the Chinese Media is white washing the news</p>
<p>And thank goodness the protesters where there…forced the torch to move…though the protesters were peaceful</p>
<p>And why all this money spent for the torch? Just so 80 people can get some personal glory and warm fuzzies? </p>
<p>And if they were running “for someone else” there are lots of ways to honor someone besides celebrating an oppresiove regime</p>
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<p>I’m not from China, so no, I harbor no fuzzy feelings towards the flag. I’d rather have nothing to do with it. But why does people waving them make you so terribly uncomfortable? I think its a bit of a stretch to compare the PRC flag to those of Nazi Germany or the KKK.</p>
<p>I’ve been following the torch relay on CNN and MSNBC. I’d like to know incredulous newspaper you read that the ‘thugs’ incited violence. I suppose the poor fellow here:</p>
<p><a href=“http://laiba.tianya.cn/laiba/images/324388/12076606822078426609/A/1/m.jpg[/url]”>http://laiba.tianya.cn/laiba/images/324388/12076606822078426609/A/1/m.jpg</a></p>
<p>and many like him were ungraciously provoked, huh? As were the idiots running up to the torch carriers and getting beat down by police every <1 minute in Paris/London. Thankfully SF has looked far more civilized today thus far than either of those cities (with only minor scuffles here and there). This is how it should be. Though it really deteriorated into a cat and mouse chase, which is pretty pointless anyhow. It now turns out many protesters and supporters of the olympics are starting to get sick of the way these protests are going:</p>
<p><a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines;
<p>I am not defending ‘Chinese policies.’ I am pointing out hypocrisy and band wagoning. You claim violence in Tibet is fabricated by the Chinese government. I suppose the LA riots of 1992 were fabricated too then. We really should have seen right through those rioters burning, looting, and killing. I don’t know the situation in Tibet, nor do I claim to, but neither does anyone else. I form my judgment as best as possible given what I HAVE seen. It seems this isn’t the case with many others.</p>
<p>China is developing at an unbelievable rate, not just economically. But the people there don’t have the opportunity to voice their opinions the way we do. My point is this: Why squander this opportunity to communicate and tarnish the notion of democracy through the undemocratic actions we’ve been witnessing for the past few days? Attacking torch bearers, acting violently, and disrupting every possible ceremony is disgusting and counterproductive.</p>
<p>if we don’t particularly like the views of one group, it doesn’t mean that they don’t belong. do i celebrate the CCCP and its human rights problems? No. but i do think that they are allowed to be proud for being selected to host the Olympics. that entails being able to let the torch runner pass through without being attacked and harassed. </p>
<p>i have no problem with personal boycotting.</p>
<p>Look, things are bad. China has a lot of issues it has to address: censorship. Governmental corruption. Persecution of religious sects like Falun Gong. Unemployment and mass migration to the cities. Inequality between the countryside and the city. Gender issues and sexism resulting from the one child policy. Unequal economic development in the autonomous regions. Pollution, to name a few.</p>
<p>But when you start making statements such as “Chinese citizens have no freedom whatsoever to assemble or to free speech” or “the government thugs are killing and enslaving all its minorities”, honestly, it really detracts from the issues at large. Because, quite simply, that is NOT the reality. Things are NOT so black and white, good and evil, and to reduce it to these simple dichotomies is to remain ignorant to the real issues that plague the country.</p>
<p>If it were so simple to break down, then all it would take would be to overthrow the present government and install a new one, and then everything would just be fine and dandy right? But is that going to solve massive unemployment in the countryside and the hundreds and millions of undocumented migrant workers that live in terrible conditions in the cities? Is that going to suddenly put an end to the HIV infection epidemics that rages in provinces like Yunnan and Sichuan? Is that going to suddenly erase all the tensions between Chinese Hans and the country’s 50+ other ethnic minorities? Is that suddenly going to make Tibet a happy place and blot out all the underlying economic and social issues that plague the region? What do you expect the government to do, just tell all the ethnic Hans or Hui who live there, grew up there, and call Lhasa their home to just pack up and leave? We’re talking on the scale of hundreds of millions of human beings here. So stop thinking about China as some perverse, bizarre 1984 Orwellian dystopia. Because that isn’t doing anyone, both Tibetans or other Chinese, any good.</p>
<p>Contested elections and a free press in China would do a lot to help the country, if the comparisons between China and Taiwan, or between north and south Korea, or between the former east and west Germany are any guide.</p>
<p>I have a problem with allowing a country that has “human rights problems” hosting the games. It gives them a stage for showing, oh look how great we are, ignore all the abuses of our people, they are irrelevent</p>
<p>And to take out poltics and the human factor for the sake of sports and country glory is obscene</p>
<p>Chinas governemnt is obscene and after seeing how some of the supporters of China acted today at the protest</p>
<p>Do those that defend China defend the lack of REAL free speech, REAL choices, REAL discent?</p>
<p>As for Tibet and is problems, China has rules Tibet and created that economy</p>
<p>Persecution of its own people, and others, do we just brush that aside so they can look pretty to the rest of the world? Do we celebrate the Chinese Government by giving this stage?</p>
<p>As for harrased while they carried the torch, those torch carries did it for their own personal pleasure and wants</p>
<p>I just find it astounding that people support and defend the communist leaders- who opprese their people, who don’t allow for dissent in any real form, who moniter their citizens</p>
<p>I watched a man, about 60, get interviewed, who when asked what he thought about the government of his homeland, sad he didn’t want to talk about it because he was afraid that it would come back to his family back there</p>
<p>That to me is really sad and no government that puts such fear diserves to host the games</p>
<p>And if those torch bearers wanted the “glory” of carrying that torch then they should take what comes with it- if you want to glorify a terrible regime that why, you should expect some reaction besides, woohoo</p>
<p>citygirlsmom,</p>
<p>What if the Olympics were in Los Angeles this year and the world start boycotting because of the Iraq War and torture against detainees…etc? How would you feel about that? You may say the US is nowhere near China but where do you draw the line? </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/97as/Tibet_was_no_Shangri-La_[/url]”>http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/97as/Tibet_was_no_Shangri-La_</a> Please read this: you’ll get a better idea of what Tibet would be really like if it were left alone. Chinese government has bumped in way more $$ into the region than it ever got back!</p>
<p>They monitor their citizens? Please go visit China if you REALLY care to to get a REAL idea of what’s going on there.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom,</p>
<p>so you’re saying all the Olympic torch carriers deserved and should expect to be harassed?</p>
<p>Wow. I have no words. I don’t know about you, but I would expect to be able to voice the most outlandish ideas without being attacked.</p>
<p>then they should boycott the LA Olympics…I have no issue with that whatsover…I would boycott them as well…</p>
<p>and if you trust what China tells you, you are more naive than I imagined</p>
<p>Yes I do say they should expect it…I didn’t say attacked, but being shouted at that they were carrying a symbol of oppresion, you betcha</p>
<p>and Sam Lee,do you think you would be allowed to carry a tibetan flag down the streets of china with no repurcussions?</p>
<p>did tibet have strip bars, was it filled with chinese soldiers before China came it</p>
<p>it is laughable to think that China made Tibet better…also very very sad</p>
<p>I don’t believe in the Chinese Govt Propaganda machines, guess some do</p>
<p>And if you have to bus in ProChinese Communist Government Supporters to rally around the torch, or fly them in, well what can I say</p>
<p>As well, at the torch event yesterday, the ones waving the Chinese flags were rude, grabbing Tibetan flags, ripping up signs, pushing people</p>
<p>Several screamed in my mother’s face (she was carrying a free tibet sigh) that she was a liar…that word, liars liars liars was a mantra of the flag red flag carrying entourage, calling American’s liar, and </p>
<p>And again, that torch run was to make China look swell, and if you decide, for your own personal glory that you want to carry that torch, you deserve to get yelled at</p>
<p>The torch carriers made a choice, something millions and millions of people that china supresses can not do</p>
<p>Go ahead and claim China is wonderful, its not, and basically all I really hear from Chinese Gov supporters is well, its better than it was</p>
<p>When China got the Olympic games, they said they would open their doors, for the games, and to the press- to see the society, to be able to look into the politics, etc</p>
<p>Well, China is going backwards on that promise…and know we here of some supposed threats…</p>
<p>Again, do you really believe the government run press? Do you believe what they report to you? DO you think that the press in China really has freedom to say what they want? Do you think people aren’t jailed for dissent? Do you believe that the military government is the best? Do you believe that China wants its population to have real choices in its leadership?</p>
<p>And yes, someone asked me if I thought the government in China was still in the 50s…I do indeed…tell me what is so different, really</p>
<p>I just love that most Pro China Gov supporters don’t see the irony in their discussions…one man on the news yesterday, carrying his huge red flag was angry and said that it wasn’t all that bad in TIbet, and he wanted to show the other side</p>
<p>The reporter asked if he realized that in China he wouldn’t be able to show both sides…all she got was a shrug…so very sad,</p>
<p>It interesting that some say the Olympics shouldn’t be political…there is no way it can’t be, China has made it so</p>
<p>And I said before, I feel no pity for the athletes nor the torch runners…those people had choices and choice how to live their lives, can’t be said for those in Tibet, Darfor, and China</p>
<p>So some didn’t get to see the torch, big deal, at least they aren’t in prison for speaking out, or starving in Tibet</p>
<p>Seems to me the time to boycott was 7 yrs ago when China was selected to host the games (and yes I know there was a great deal of protest back then), not now, 7 yrs later when we as a nation have been “supporting” these games for the last 7 yrs - by supporting our own athletes who are training to compete, for starters (and lets not even talk about all the trade we currently do with China. Anyone boycotting those US companies?)</p>
<p>As for personal boycotts? Sure, go ahead, turn off your TVs. But who’s really being hurt? And what is really being gained other than your own feelings of self-righteousness?</p>
<p>citygirlsmom,</p>
<p>If someone really were to answer your question and tell you how China is different today than it was in the 50s, you would simply dismiss it as “Chinese propoganda.” In fact, if anyone said anything positive about China at all, it would be propaganda. I wonder who the victim of brainwashing is.</p>
<p>If not that, every argument you make is something along the lines of “I can do it here. You can’t do it in China. Therefore you’re wrong.” Right, ok.</p>
<p>As for tight security around the torch. Perhaps it wouldn’t be necessary if protesters actually acted in a civilized manner?</p>
<p>I wasn’t at the event yesterday, but I heard from some friends who attended. They told me quite a different story. They said the pro-olympic demonstrators outnumbered the pro-tibet demonstrators something like 5 to 1, and that many pro-Tibet demonstrators were rude and belligerent. I think it’s safe to say there were individuals from both camps acting out of line.</p>
<p>But apparently the ones seen on television being wrestled to the ground by police and being arrested were nearly all anti-china protesters. I wonder what that says.</p>
<p>The torch carriers should be left alone. Protests are fine-- a good thing. Chaotic heckling and especially violence towards the torch bearers as we’ve seen recently over and over is completely out of line. [Herschel</a> Walker Proud to Carry the Torch - ESPN Video](<a href=“http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3337823]Herschel”>http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3337823)</p>
<p>In addition, you complain that the pro-chinese demonstrators were rude… and then immediately in the next sentence you say the torch carriers “deserve to be yelled at.” Then finally you assert that pro-Chinese are unable to realize the irony in their discussion. Oh the irony.</p>
<p>You can’t have your cake and eat it too.</p>
<p>And look, athletes don’t deserve it just as the torch bearers don’t deserve it. I think its wrong to suggest olympic athletes, who train for their entire lives, somehow condone the politics of the host country for participating in the games.</p>
<p>It’s like if hundreds of protesters ran into the middle of a July 4th parade, disrupting the procession, and wrest away the American flag from paraders and stomp on them. I’m sure that does a lot to advance their cause.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom, I am just wondering if you have ever been to China. And if so, what provinces/regions? </p>
<p>Now please don’t accuse me of sympathizing with the Communist Party, or being a victim of brainwashing or government propaganda- because I don’t think I am. Nobody really there took the CCTV’s news programs very seriously anyways, always with a grain of salt. But I’m asking this because whenever I go to visit family in Yunnan or Tibet, the image of China that I see is not consistent with the one you paint. I would like to think of myself as an intelligent, discerning human being. Maybe the government is just doing a really good job hiding everything- I keep wondering if I am really gullible or naive or blind. I don’t know. I’m just curious to know where your information is coming from.</p>
<p>Chinese state media have reported that the “flame protection squad”, consisting of some 70 members of China’s People’s Armed Police, has been employed by the Beijing Olympic Organising Committee to safeguard the fire for 24 hours a day.</p>
<p>But the squad’s heavy-handed approach in managing the torch relay – which has been a magnet for chaotic demonstrations in London, Paris, and San Francisco over China’s human rights record and recent government crackdown on monk-led protests in Tibet – has made some uncomfortable.</p>
<p>[Japan</a> says no to Chinese torch guards: reports | Reuters](<a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersComService_2_MOLT/idUST21452620080411]Japan”>http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersComService_2_MOLT/idUST21452620080411)</p>
<p>itsn’t not the people, its the Government, why are people so protective of such a horrid regime, i will never understand</p>
<p>you seem to like sweating small stuff, if you feel so disgusted about the protection (simply because the Chinese govt isn’t convinced they have enough protection).</p>
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