<p>When I said don’t help, I didn’t mean don’t help at all, I meant more that he has to take the lead - as in “I heard of this culinary school in Philly named X, maybe you should look into it” He needs to take some initiative, particularly if he has been screened for depression and is not depressed, only bewildered.</p>
<p>I know he doesn’t think he wants a community college program but some of them are excellent. I don’t know what state you are in but Santa Barbara City College has a strong cullinary program. They also have a large percentage of students who come from out of the area. Some also live in IV which is the student ghetto of UCSB so he could get that portion of the college experience. Maybe offer to pay for a more prestigious culinary school after seeing a year or two of success at a community college.</p>
<p>I take issue with some of what Three<em>to</em>go wrote:</p>
<p>“Since he messed up and wasted our $, he has developed an idee fixe that he <em>must</em> pay his own way. Honestly, he can’t make enough money where we live and he is currently unemployed in an area with few opportunities. (Mouthed off to another employee while he was under high stress situation). He also needs a car since his was totalled–not his fault”</p>
<p>It’s great that your son has the idea that he wants to pay his own way - and you are wrong, dead wrong, that he “can’t”. If my 21 year old college dropout son can support himself - then your son can to. I’m not saying it will be easy - but it is far from impossible. If he can’t make enough where you live, then - quite simply – he will have to move. He doesn’t “need” a car (my son doesn’t have one), but since he doesn’t have one – he probably needs to go to an urban area to find work, where he will be able to get around by bus - or else he will have to find a job in a place where he can walk or ride a bike to work. If he moves out of your house, he can save on rent by looking for shared housing – he certainly doesn’t need his own apartment. If he is lucky, he might be able to find a situation that provides reduced rent in exchange for some work. </p>
<p>It will be tough – but the bottom line is that he needs to get rid of all of these “can’ts” and start taking action. </p>
<p>You wrote “He feels badly but can’t undo the consequences.” </p>
<p>He can’t UNDO, but he CAN move on. Getting fired from one job doesn’t mean he can’t find another. Losing a car doesn’t mean he will never have another. The bottom line is that he needs to get a job, and if he can’t find one where he lives, then he needs to go where jobs are. </p>
<p>I know you care about him and are worried, but right now it sounds like you are feeding his sense of failure by buying into the “can’t” rationale of his life. He needs to be waking up in the morning with a can-do attitude, and working on finding that job. There is no reason that he can’t be using the internet to search out job opportunities in nearby cities.</p>
<p>Well, I did ask for opinions… I see that posters divide themselves into various camps. Maybe what people write indicates their past experience (negative) since there are a couple of posts that seem to me unduly judgemental and harsh especially since the poster only has a tiny bit of secondhand information.</p>
<p>There is the tough-love approach also cited and the “live and let live”. </p>
<p>I think that kids often do not understand how consequential their actions/non-actions can become–like dominoes. Some kinds of mistake-consequence sequences are obvious as they have a quick turn-around. Others seem to take much longer.</p>
<p>It does seem as though we are operating within a construct of “hurry up and decide”, " quickly figure out what you want to do and get out there" as if time was of the absolute essence. I grew up with the Americanized notion too that growing up meant leaving home and moving away. I think with this economy and changes in our demographics, that notion is now being questioned. However, I do think that a 21 year old should be contributing to the household.</p>
<p>My preference is that he go to college. I don’t want him wasting anymore time with the notion that substituting working at low wage is as good as an advanced education. Struggling to pay rent and food and utilities, trying to get alternative transportation is character building but nobody would choose to do that if they had better options offered. I don’t think the Horation Alger myth is workable or preferable in our society–success for many comes from group support. Immigrants to this country recognize the value of education and are slaving away, sacrificing themselves so that their kids can afford to jump out of that scenario you are touting.
Understand that I see where you are coming from–but he already knows. I think he wants to find someplace to attend near his GF and was waiting for her input.</p>
<p>My position and my husband’s is that we want to help our kids get toward their desires. We aren’t going to kick them to the curb if they don’t conform to our expectations or go the route of the “prodigal son”. It is just that we don’t always speak the same language or know how to reach in or what to do when things go awry. This is a very expensive area to live in for everybody–I wouldn’t wish trying to afford urban prices (with nothing left over) on anyone. Moving elsewhere where you have no support group at all—ack. What’s the point? To prove to some external person(s) that you have worth and can “make it”? Personally, I’d only strike out for parts unknown if I had the strong emotional support of a close friend or partner.</p>
<p>Mom60-</p>
<p>Nothing against community colleges. It is just that you have to choose carefully since he already knows how to do many of the classes are simply training for things he already learned on the job. He is a very quick study for things he enjoys.</p>
<p>somewhere on the parents’ forum, someone suggested that adult children “pay” for their room and board with mom and dad’s who don’t actually need the noey by doing volunteer work. I thought that was a great idea. Is there anyplace your son could volunteer, with you driving him if necessary? He needs to get in motion and do something constructive for the sake of his sanity and self-esteem, even if he does not want to make long term decisions until he sees what’s going to happen with the girlfriend.</p>
<p>I got some volunteer “work”
grocery shopping, walking the dog, feeding the dog, taking out the garbage,washing clothes, cleaning the bathroom,vacuming, dusting, cleaning the fridge, mopping the floor, weeding, watering the plants, changing the oil, washing the car,cooking, doing the dishes,washing the windows, mowing the grass, cleaning the pond, washing the dog, taking dog to the vet, finding all the library books and returning them, figuring out what to get at the grocery store, painting the house…
Make 'em a slave that will get them motivated to be on their own!</p>
<p>But for cooking the CCs around here have a much better reputation than schools like " Art Institute of…"</p>
<p>Texas 137 - I also suggested volunteer work earlier in this thread…I think when some people are in a bit of a depression or rut, an immobilization of sorts sets in…Getting out of that rut becomes more and more difficult the longer one is in it…</p>
<p>in my area (Central CA) there are many volunteer organizations that provide meals for homeless, senior citizens, etc. (tie ein with his sooking interest?) Something like this might help get him “up and moving” and also provide a sense of purpose…also, not to sound self-serving, but many of these organizations have great connections in the community and involvement can lead to excellent networking opportunities.</p>
<p>Thanks ckr1147,
Volunteerism is always a good idea. He does help out here with meal prep and whatever I ask him to do.</p>
<p>The culinary school next to PENN was one my son was very interested in and YES only after a four year IVY LEAGUE education. Any way…it does have a good reputation and even has a separate school just for specialty “pastry chefs.” Problem is you need to have a very good source of income as it is full time. But if you can board elsewhere like with a relative you can prolly afford to send him. Look into it…I had a cousin that graduated from there and got a job almost immediately upon graduation. And your son does sound like the “artistic” type…very much so by the sound of his personality. He could be very successful in that kind of creative envrionment. Cooking and pastry chef in particular requires a genuine creative/artistic flair!!! Good luck…if I could only remember the name of the place…</p>
<p>I found it…THE RESTAURANT SCHOOL on Walnut…in a so-so part of town but right next door to PENN so you have a great social life!!!</p>
<p>Culinary schools actually tend to offer a fine social life in and of themselves, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. One of my relatives attended CIA (granted, its larger and more prestigious than others) but he truly enjoyed the experience, socially and ‘academically’ - he also got an excellent job afterwards and probably makes more than my husband or I ever did at that age :)</p>
<p>Three<em>to</em>go wrote:
Thats YOUR preference, but I didn’t get much of a sense from reading your posts that it is your SON’S preference. It sounds like your son’s preference right now is to sit at home, daydream, and feel sorry for himself… but it also sounds from his work history that he is willing to go out and work. It does NOT sound like he’s happy with the current situation, and obviously you aren’t … and it isn’t going to get better if he goes and does poorly at yet another college where he is unmotivated and doesn’t fit in. </p>
<p>So I would agree with you 100% that your son - and mine - will be better off with college degrees. But my son has a job AND is happy, self-confident, and has made lots of friends through his work. His work experience is valuable both because it has helped him focus and become more disciplined, which will enable him to make better use of a college education when he returns; and because he is getting a good foundation of experience for future employment.</p>
<p>
My son took a low wage job, got promoted, got promoted again, and again … he has lived in 6 different places in the 15 months because he keeps moving to accept new projects and promotions … and he loves his work. My son does have “better options” than relying on others for transport - at this point he could easily afford to buy a used car - but he wants to save money, so he prefers NOT to have a car. I realize that this is an urban thing …unless you have actually lived in a city, you may not realize what a pain in the rear it can be to own a car when you have to struggle each day to find a place to park it, and how much easier it is to walk and rely on public transportation. And I don’t particularly buy into the Horatio Alger stuff, but this “myth” seems to have lead my son to a position within a very large organization where his job title is “director”. I think he got extra opportunities precisely because he was willing to relocate. He HAS group support – from the people he works with. It really didn’t take all that long for him to make friends that way.</p>
<p>You don’t have to agree – but as you noted, you are asking for advice. I did NOT advocate kicking the kid out – I did give my own son an ultimatum, but it was either go to school OR get a job OR move out. As long as he was in school or working I was willing to feed and house him – I didn’t want him to pay rent as long as he was reasonably helpful around the house – I just wasn’t willing to support the VEGGING.</p>
<p>My son happens to have found a very good, fulfilling job that he loves. He has a health plan and gets paid vacations, and has a position of responsibility. If he doesn’t go back to school, there is still plenty of room for promotions and increased pay. Most of the people he works with are college grads; in fact, many of the people he supervises are college grads. He plans to go back to school, but he doesn’t NEED to go back to support himself – and he will always be able to work at a middle-management level if he wants, simply because he has the work experience of supervising up to 100 people, being responsible for running an office, doing payroll, etc. I’m not talking glamorous, Fortune 500 stuff – I’m just saying that he’s now got the type of experience that would make it easy for him to get the job of “office manager” or “sales manager” at a small to moderate size business. </p>
<p>My son found this challenging and interesting job by applying for an entry level position that did not look at all promising – he had to take a risk. With his particular work, the entry level positions are paid mostly on commission, and new hires are usually fired within 2 weeks if they are not producing. The ones who make it past that point, like my son, end up on a promotion track. The ones who don’t probably end up thinking that it was a lousy, low paying job that they are glad to leave behind. I honestly think that part of the reason my son was promoted to a salaried position early on was that he was doing so well, that he was earning too much on the commission-only plan. And I don’t know why this particular job resonated with my son – for all his previous jobs, he seemed to take pride in getting away with as little work and effort as possible … maybe for my son, the commission structure was a necessary motivator. </p>
<p>So all I am saying is that when you characterize your son’s present prospects as being low-wage and necessarily requiring your son to struggle… you are manifesting a defeatist attitude. I don’t know whether you are getting that from your son, or feeding into it. I’m not trying to attack here … I’m just trying to point out that the only way for your son’s position to change is for HIM to take initiative and control over his life. It isn’t a school vs. job debate, its a getting up and doing something issue … and it really has to be your son that ends up making the decisions and taking action. </p>
<p>
To prove to YOURSELF that you can “make it” … because once you know that, you never have to worry again. It’s part of a rite of passage to adulthood – and it is absolutely necessary if your “support group” is a family living in a place where you can’t find work and can’t afford to live on your own. I mean – there really isn’t any choice if “home” is the place where there aren’t any jobs. </p>
<p>
Then I guess you’ve missed out on some interesting adventures in your life. Don’t be afraid to allow your son greater freedom to explore – he can always come back home if he doesn’t make it.</p>
<p>I think you are dealing with a tough situation. Your son has to WANT to find something “better” to do with his life, as you can’t make him. By the same token, you do not have to support him while he does nothing. </p>
<p>Anyway, while I can see how some might say, Don’t Pay for him to do X or Y…such as some college thing…cause he did not stick with things in the past and so on…I can tell you are a loving mom and want to help your son. I think there is middle ground between doing FOR him and lending him fend for himself. I think if you choose to support a new endeavor, say some schooling (and he would have to want to do this schooling), you would have to establish certain parameters or benchmarks or guidelines he would have to meet at certain junctures. In other words, you are not willing to pay for floundering or a semester here, dropping out, then something else, yadda yadda. Boundaries/agreements must be drawn up. I do have a friend with a son who is taking a while to get through college, floundering, not doing well with school, etc. and I know they are sick of paying for this unless he starts to set some goals or limits to the whole process. But I digress. </p>
<p>I don’t know where you live. Apparently the girlfriend’s location is an issue. I don’t know if she can move to where he would go. But if your son is truly interested (and I mean TRULY…) in culinary school, I would like to suggest New England Culinary Institute in Montpelier, Vermont. He would not need a car per se (normally in VT I think a car is good but at NECI, the students live in walking distance to what they need and also to the restaurants that they work at). It is a great place, great reputation (their restaurants have great food too!). The students do work in the restaurants, a few of them. Perhaps your son can look into it. I know the head of the program. </p>
<p>Good luck with a tough situation. I think it will entail toughness and strength and setting of boundaries on your end, plus the loving efforts to help him find his way. He will need some self motivation, however, to make it. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Calmom,
Thanks for your frank post. I really do understand where you’re coming from and I’m happy that your kid had a turnaround.
I think the psychological factors that contributed to one’s kids’ growing up period have a definite effect on this moving on phase. In his heart, he is a home body more than an adventurer–not wanting to be far from those he cares about comes somewhat from having to rip up his roots whenever the family was moving. He was an only child who took the divorce situation hard and each parent began a series of relocations that eventually took each of us in different directions and to new states hundreds of miles apart. He grew to hate having to start all over again with each move (especially hard to a teenager) and juggling visits between us parents–especially the “goodbyes” for months at a time which ripped him up inside. He struggled with trying to play the middle in a shared custody situation. Not fun. I know <em>I</em> was still dealing with the baggage of old parental/home issues at his age and I wasn’t even living there. He wants to be independent and not have anyone tell him what to do. But this manifests in two ways: he either explodes into a hastily contrived action which he hasn’t thought out thoroughly or he is paralyzed by indecision fearing the consequences of wrong choice (internalized failure spiral fed by the hasty actions taken previously).
Yeah-my preference is college. I mean, he screwed up a semester and 1/2 back in 2000. I do know of plenty of kids enrolled in 4 year colleges acting this way, so in one sense it is no bfd in the scale of the universe. I just get mad since he is not adhering to my idea of an appropriate growth timeline. He has told me would would like to go to a culinary school several times. He doesn’t know how to finance it given his situation.</p>
<p>SusieVT-- my natural tendencies lie in the direction of your post. I see my job as engaging his brain to overcome his emotional reactions. Re-the car–heck. We can get him a “bomber” that will serve until he can afford something better on his own. You should see what his GF drives for now! GF is a “good Catholic girl” who is closely tied to her Mom/Dad and the Philly area. She has her own growing up issues to handle.</p>
<p>It’s hard to say what to do and what will work. Sometimes they need a boost. Where do you live? We lived the NY/NJ area with a 20 year old who had burned out of several community colleges. The commuting and juggling work/home/school just did not work for him. If you can afford to do this, what I would do is sign him up for a very good SAT course, and tutoring to focus on areas of weakness on the SAT. Find another local or community college and take some courses this summer. Apply to small, private colleges where he can live and get a fresh start.</p>
<p>Or to accelerate the process, find a school that will take him with the SAT scores and grades that he has and get rolling on the app process. Again, it should be a residential college where he go total immersion.</p>
<p>Be aware that you are buying him an opportunity that he may well blow. My nephew did take off from this point because he hated the alternative life he had been living for the past 2 years enough to bite the bullet and get through. </p>
<p>I think counseling of sorts is in order as well.</p>
<p>Following up on what jamimom says, I would urge you to consult or buy a book which may be out of print at this stage entitled something like ONE HUNDRED COLLEGES FOR AVERAGE STUDENTS by Joe Ann Adler. It contains a list and two page description of each school and may be useful in considering not very selective residential places. You are to be commended for your good-hearted efforts on your child’s behalf.</p>