Gifted and Talented Parents trials and tribulations

[sjmom2329]

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@mathmom

Being a year plus young meant I felt I could do these things because I didn’t feel like I was losing time.

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<p>This idea is what I sometimes find troubling about the discussion of giftedness. (Not anything against you mathmom!)</p>

<p>I see the value in addressing a child’s academic needs, through subject acceleration or enrichment. But what’s the rush? In an ideal world, kids could learn what they need at their own pace, and still be kids. Do all the “baby lawyers” feel that it helped you a lot to enter the working world at 20? I don’t have the data at hand, but I believe that most kids that benefit from such acceleration are advanced in math, which leads to a more discrete form of acceleration. These kids are not always globally gifted or emotionally able to move among much older students. The cases I’ve read about regarding radical grade skipping – entering college at 12 or so – don’t necessarily have happy endings. The story of Adragon de Mello comes to mind. <a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adragon_De_Mello[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adragon_De_Mello&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I agree with allmusic, that focusing exclusively on the “gift” is not always a good thing.</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>The problem is, that there is a fear of the “gift” squandered, so parents sometimes make unilateral decisions for their children when they are young, because of this uber-specialness of said children.</p>

<p>No slam on the OP, but the 640 on the Math part of the SAT by a 12 year old isn’t as special as all that. Yes, it is very good, but it is not Einstein. Currently, Johns Hopkins CTY Study of Exceptional Talent (SET) is tracking a group of kids who scored above 700, before their 13th birthday, and there is quite a large number of these kids. Some of these kids will accomplish some very amazing things in their lives, and I have been watching to see how they develop. Some…less so, but the question is…are the ones who aren’t curing cancer at age 20, happy? Are they fulfilled? Isn’t that of monumental importance?</p>

<p>I think we can place too much emphasis, as SJ says, on achievement, and while achievement may make some people happy, it doesn’t make everyone happy. Does it mean that the unhappy gifted high achiever is more successful than the happy gifted lower achiever? I’d say not, but perhaps I don’t have a lot of company in that belief.</p>

[HImom]

<p>When my kids attended a ceremony for Johns Hopkins CTY, the keynote speaker was an 18-year old who was graduating from college (he had gone to college instead of HS). He was headed for Harvard Law School in the fall. He exhorted other young people to consider his path & seemed quite happy with it. I have not heard anything about this young man since & it has been many years since he would have otherwise graduated from law school.</p>

<p>It is a great responsibility & challenge for the parents, families & students to figure out the available options for children whose intellectual needs are “different” or “out-of-sync” with their chronological age. </p>

<p>We are fortunate when we can find the combination of solutions that appears to work well in meeting as many of our youngsters needs as possible, tho the solutions vary widely, as evidenced by this thread. It is good that schools are coming to realize how different students abilities are & allow more options to provide enrichment and challenge to brilliant, questing minds. These programs were much tougher to find before computers. It makes our jobs are parents and guides a bit more bewildering, but the rewards of seeing great fits & thriving kids are priceless!</p>

<p>Long ago, as a family, we made the choice that we would always put our kids’ social needs above their academic abilities. We have also allowed them to choose their courses and schools, with enrichment available to the degree they preferred. Grades were never much of a priority in this household, but learning & analytical thinking have always been valued. For us, this has worked well and the kids have nice friends and have always been able to find the intellectual stimulation they desire–sometimes inside of school but often via internet & their 2nd home, the public library.</p>

[mathmom]

<p>“This idea is what I sometimes find troubling about the discussion of giftedness. (Not anything against you mathmom!)”</p>

<p>I think you are missing by point, by rushing through the early school years (which I never felt like I did because the grade I skipped was first grade), I felt like I could slow down at a time in my life when there were more interesting things to do than when you are four or five. I didn’t rush off to become a baby lawyer. I was in the middle of my class age-wise in grad school.</p>

<p>I’m not highly gifted or abnormally precocious, but I really don’t think I missed my childhood in anyway. What I’d really like to see is more multiaged classrooms - my best years in school were the two years my mother taught a one-room school house.</p>

[marite]

<p>Different issues are being conflated here. Grade-skipping involves skipping entire grades across the board. Some students are grade skipped by entering school early or by skipping a whole grade. Others are accelerated in some subjects but not others. If they are, then they will be with their age peers in some classes and with older students in the classes into which they have been accelerated.
The latter is what happened with my S who entered kindergarten at the regular age and was accelerated in math & science.</p>

<p>Some students (like my S and Soozie’s D) graduate early so enter college at a young age. While many colleges admit and make provisions for younger students, they are a bit leery of such students because of maturity issues. One parent was adamant that she would not let her kids skip, or graduate early because she’d seen too many young students having social/emotional problems. When one of her kids graduated early owing to unanticipated circumstances, she insisted on the kid taking a gap year (after being admitted early at an Ivy).</p>

[momof2inca]

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Calmom wrote: I was accellerated in school and started college at age 16. Everything went fine. I ended up in a top laws school at age 20, graduated at 23. </p>

<p>Based on my own experience, I would definitely not want the same for my kids. </p>

<p>I think the summing up from the other thread – where it turned out that at least 3 other CC regular parent posters were also “baby lawyers”… is that the end result of the early accelleration is that we spent more years of our life stressed-out and working, and less having fun… because (in hindsight) while we were rushing headlong through school, we missed the opportunities that childhood and adolescence afford.

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<p>Calmom, thanks for sharing this story; it clarifies some things for me. Our S, who’s currently a 2nd year college student at 19, could have chosen to graduate from college this May and could have started law school shortly after turning 20 in July (he has lots of units earned during high school due to AP and community college classes). It would have been the economically prudent thing to do (save 2 years of university and use the money to help him out with law school). But he chose, and we support this decision, to go the full four years of undergrad and then pay for grad school on his own. Your experience, along with Burnthis’s and MWChild’s, makes me glad that we took into account more than his academic capability and our finances. I think especially for a legal career, why rush into it just because you can? Same with medicine. They both are such grinding, stressful jobs that don’t allow for a lot of contemplation once you get on track.</p>

[anon94785555]

<p>There is a difference between early grade acceleration and early graduation- my son got to enjoy all the priveleges of being “top dog” , oldest grade, in elementary school and spent 7 years doing middle-high school activities. This seems much better than skipping senior year, for example. He also had the advantage of progressing with his classmates. BTW a fellow third grader said “—'s like a 5th grader” spontaneously, to which I quickly responded that he was a 3rd grader just like him; the very next day that fall the letter came stating my son was doing 4th grade work. </p>

<p>Asynchrony is used in the GT books- it refers to a discrepancy between mental and physical ages, not maturity levels. The social difficulty arises because there aren’t enough people around at the same age and mental development to associate with. This is one reason organizations for GT kids sponsor summer camps/schools-not only for the academics but to allow them to have a peer group. In his early teens my son went to the WCATY HS programs, not for the courses but for the people. He would come home telling us how stupid we were… Later he developed friends through running and had a local peer group to relate to. One advantage of his acceleration was allowing him to hit the more rigorous HS classes earlier. </p>

<p>The Midwest Talent Search (Northwestern U) serves our area. I recall that one year a 690 math SAT score for 8th graders was the minimum for being in the top % and getting invited to a one day program. Back then son’s verbal skills were better than his math skills but science was more his interest- interest trumps ability (as it should; the reason I politely told my HS econ teacher I was going to major in chemistry when he suggested economics eons ago).</p>

<p>GT education has improved in our local school district. One concept they’re using is the differentiation model used by teachers for the opposite end of the spectrum (“special ed”, gotta love those euphonisms). Think of all the work we all could have avoided if we could have plugged our kids into a system that automatically evaluated and came up with the appropriate individualized program. It still doesn’t happen locally, teacher re-education has begun, but making changes is a slow process… The digression here is to point out the diversity in the GT population and the diversity of good ways to do things.</p>

[marite]

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Asynchrony is used in the GT books- it refers to a discrepancy between mental and physical ages, not maturity levels.

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<p>Actually asynchrony is used in different ways: to describe the gap between intellectual and physical development and to describe the gap between intellectual and social/emotional development.
<a href=“http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/myths.html[/url]”>http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/myths.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

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This seems much better than skipping senior year, for example.

Not for my S who saw 3/4 of his AP-Physics class graduate that very year, and the other 1/4 graduate the following year–the year he entered high school. Although he had not wanted to be grade-skipped in k-8, he decided he did not want to stay in high school any longer than he had to. If he had stayed all four years, he could probably have graduated from college in one year, or at most two. But he wants to stay in college all four years because, finally, his intellectual and social peers are the same people.</p>

[anxiousmom]

<p>One thing that I feel is SO damaging to kids who have been identified as “gifted”, and singled out for all its attendent attention, is that the increased expectations due to the labeling ends up leaving kids feeling like thye have let others down or FAILED if they haven’t continued their stellar trajectories as adults. The expectations of both kid and adults can be a MAJOR burden that forever marks a kid. The kid who has not been labeled prodigy is justifiably proud and content to be a professional scientist working for a company or university as a 30-year-old… the “prodigy” now similarly successfull in the lab working with him/her may feel that he/she has lost the “edge” and has failed and/or not lived up to expectations…</p>

[calmom]

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@sjmom2329

Do all the “baby lawyers” feel that it helped you a lot to enter the working world at 20?

@HImom

the keynote speaker was an 18-year old who was graduating from college (he had gone to college instead of HS). He was headed for Harvard Law School in the fall. He exhorted other young people to consider his path & seemed quite happy with it.

I think the consensus among all “baby lawyers” was that it seemed like a good idea at the time, but we came to regret it later on, probably about the time that it dawned on us that we weren’t the “youngest” any more and an early start hadn’t conferred any advantage whatsoever. I don’t know about the others, but I think the realization hits at about age 30… it’s like, oops, where did my youth go? I would note that none of us were practicing law at 20 – at best, the early college path got us done with law school at age 22 (I was 23). </p>

<p>Plus, law is such a high-stress occupation that you start to feel old fast. There is just constant pressure and a huge level of responsibility, because once you take on a case, at an emotional level you have taken on everyone else’s problems and the task of resolving them, and clients come to lawyers with huge problems, where the lawyers actions or inaction can result in huge financial loss, or loss of liberty, or life-shattering outcomes such as losing the custody of a child. And no matter how good the lawyer is, if the client is not satisfied with the outcome, they will tend to blame the lawyer. </p>

<p>So it doesn’t surprise me at all that a kid starting law school at a young age would be happy about it. The truth is that law is also a high-prestige occupation that has some power to it. It is amazing what you can accomplish in low-level, day-to-day transactions and disputes simply with a letter written on legal letterhead. So it really, really cool to be fresh out of school, with the very first “real” job, and have that kind of respect and power merely because you can write “Attorney at Law” or “Esq.” after your name. And going to court and trying cases can be just plain fun. If you win a tough case, its an incredible rush. </p>

<p>But its tiring, intense, and very difficult to get away. Even when you go on vacation, you are stressed out and worried about your cases – and in any case, it is guaranteed that some major crisis will arise with one of your cases or clients while you are on vacation or immediately before you are scheduled to leave. Handing off responsibility to someone else at the firm doesn’t help, because then you spend your time fretting over whether they are going to muck it all up. You constantly worry that you will make some mistake that will get you sued or disbarred (or fired if you work for a firm), and that builds up over time as the caseload and number of things you have to stress about increases. </p>

<p>And no matter how young you are when you start, 5 years down the line you aren’t a baby any more and you are being upstaged by some hot shot attorney who is younger than you. That’s the ultimate problem with doing everything in a big hurry when you are young. You end up getting old anyway.</p>

<p>(Also, anecdotally, it appears that an early start as a lawyer leads to CC addiction in middle age… I still can’t believe how many of us are here. )</p>

[marite]

<p>calmom:</p>

<p>Is burning out specific to baby lawyers or to lawyering or other high intensity careers? I know of several women (no men, though) who graduated from top law school at the normal age then, after a few years, decided that lawyering was not for them and went to grad school for a Ph.D. I also know one man who went into international banking and dropped out, saying it was a career for the young. </p>

<p>I feel there is a difference between rushing through school and life and getting the education that is appropriate to each individual. For some, it means an education that is far more advanced than what age peers might get, but not any more intense, necessarily, so that they “have no life” or burn out early.</p>

[anxiousmom]

<p>Any discussion about my point above? Am I the only one who feels that this puts a lot of pressure (directly or indirectly) on kids? And that this pressure can be very damaging during the adolescent - young adult - mature adult transition?</p>

[sjmom2329]

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@marite

I feel there is a difference between rushing through school and life and getting the education that is appropriate to each individual.

I agree with this completely. Forcing a kid to do work beneath his/her ability level is going to have a bad outcome. But placing them in situations for which they don’t have the maturity is risky too.</p>

<p>Just some random thoughts…</p>

<p>Rushing through life is probably not a good thing. As Calmom said, if someone’s self esteem is tied to being the youngest in a class or field, that won’t last forever. Think of gymnasts or ice skaters – there’s always a new one coming down the pike.</p>

<p>Intelligence does not equal wisdom. Graduating from college at a young age does not ensure a lifetime of happiness. </p>

<p>I think there’s inherent risk in labeling kids as “gifted.” There’s a fine line between making sure our kids get the appropriate, challenging courses they need, and hanging their value on their giftedness.</p>

<p>Anxiousmom, I think you raise some valid concerns.</p>

[katwkittens]

<p>Same DS I mentioned in my earlier post was faced with the same decision again regarding skipping grades, accelerating and graduating early when making his decision on which university to matriculate to this fall.</p>

<p>He graduated with 17 APs, and 6 college courses. Had he attended UNC-CH, Vanderbilt, Rice or a few of the other schools he was accepted to he stood to have 85+ units for advanced standing based on his AP scores alone. Add in the college courses and the 120-124 needed to graduate would be upon him quickly. He had done research through Chapel Hill’s school of medicine the summer preceeding his senior year so they were well acquainted with his work and abilities, specifically the dean of admissions, one of his PIs.</p>

<p>They knew what their offer of admission to him with certain scholarships and special accelerated programs would mean as far as a BA/MD/MBA. Time and money would figure in substantially. He knew this was on the table as an offer. Knew it played a role in other school acceptance’s as well, with the addition of grad school figuring in the equation as well. He also had the acceptance of Penn’s M & T program resulting in (2) BS in econ from Wharton and biomedical engineering from their school of engineering. MIT was offering something very similar. All 3 academies said max 2 years on campus with special provisions for grad school at Johns Hopkins or early promotion/release to special forces.</p>

<p>Since he did NOT apply ED anywhere (just EA) he had room and time to make his decision. Not til late, late April did he AGAIN opt for a full 4 year program. A program which allowed him to wait to declare a major and to allow him to explore. I was hesitant as I had been when he was younger. But he walked me through all the decisions logically until he ended up with only 1 choice. If the military was to be his path he could still do that after college and again as an officer (west point liason explained and convinced him of this!), if he wanted a degree from Wharton he could still do that as a grad student as was true for studies at MIT and CalTech. If he went to Chicago would he still have the ability to excell athletically as he would have at another school? He was so comfortable with Carolina there would be no challenge, and if he really wanted to go to Duke he could for med school (where he had done cancer research 2 years previously.)</p>

<p>He said the most obvious choice for him after much agonizing and quandry (more on my part) was to attend Princeton and study much of what he loved in great abundance for all 4 years, math and physics and economics and history and on and on… His choice gave him freedom and he wasn’t ready to yet say this is “it”, this is what I want when he wanted so much more.</p>

<p>He hit his cap for AP advanced standing but it made no difference to him other than placing him in higher math, science, waiving 1 language letting him take another, and trying to decide which fabulous class he could take next. He was thrilled at the possibility of Greek Democracy while taking some class on seismology.</p>

<p>There is a special program for math in Hungary that he might consider along with another in London for economics. And one is not mutually exclusive to the other. He is tempted by the Woodrow Wilson school and physics at the Plasma lab.</p>

<p>I have to trust he picked well. Granted he is also enthralled with his 20 meals a week mealplan so consider the source! </p>

<p>I agree with Susan and Calmom in that it is dependent on the specific child, and especially in Susan’s case where her child was the one requesting. In some of my son’s classes with some of his contemporaries he saw so many times it was the parent doing the pushing and pulling and the parent could not see how miserable the child was. Saw the same thing in daughter’s gymnastics, swimming and other’s sons’ football and baseball.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

[sjmom2329]

<p>Kat, your posts always make so much sense to me. You seem to really just follow your son’s lead, without pushing him in any one direction. The Princeton decision sounds very sensible – I don’t see the point in graduating early just for the sake of it. With his AP credits, my son could graduate early from Dartmouth. But what’s the point? He’ll still go to grad school eventually, and in the meantime is having the time of his life. Actually, I think they’ll have to kick him out when the time comes!</p>

[calmom]

<p>Marite, the issue isn’t whether lawyers burnout at any age, the issue is what opportunities have been missed, for travel, leisure, exploring arts, sports, hobbies, etc. The older lawyers you know who have tired out or changed careers probably also don’t feel that they missed out on something in adolescence or their early 20’s. Once embarked on a career and saddled with the responsiblity of supporting oneself, it is hard to find time for fun and relaxation.</p>

[marite]

<p>calmom:</p>

<p>I got you. But I don’t know if that holds true of early graduates from high school. It certainly holds true, in my opinion, of early graduates from college. As you say, once they’re out of professional school, they are into jobs (whether or not they also marry young). My S made the same calculus as Kat’s S and decided on 4 years of college–as do the majority of those eligible for Advanced Standing at HYP, I understand.
The problem with kids who are passionate about a particular subject is that pursuing a passion means becoming more and more advanced and also focusing on this passion with intensity in summer. It’s hard to get them interested in something else, especially if they see summer programs as compensation for boring classes during the academic year.</p>

[calmom]

<p>Marite, I actually don’t have any problem with the idea of early high school graduation – I just think that kids in that circumstance should seriously consider a gap year. It’s the combination of full grade accelleration with a rush to early college that I think leads to the end result of being a rueful 32-year-old, saddled with the burdens of career, a mortgage, and a couple of young children… wondering why it was so important to skip right past the “fun” part of one’s youth. I guess that is the downside of the “passion” that some of us “gifted” kids once had for our academic and career goals: we just were too single minded in our focus.</p>

<p>Buy the way, I put “gifted” in quotes because I don’t like the term – I prefer “precocious” because as a former “gifted” kid myself, one thing I learned is that over time, a lot of other people catch up. Some of the most able and talented people I know in adult life were late bloomers. That’s the other problem with the label, that Anxiousmom alludes to – I think with the “gifted” label the child is also led to believe that she is, or should be, smarter than everyone else – when the reality is often that the kid is simply hitting developmental milestones a lot earlier. That, and the fact that the adult world makes very little distinctions or allowances based on age can lead to disappointment at later stages of life when the wunderkind thing has run its course.</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>I think Calmom has hit the proverbial nail on the head.</p>

<p>Things do even out quite a lot for kids as they get closer to adulthood. Their precociousness of youth can become less pronounced later on, even if they continue to be highly gifted. And it can be a big burden, living with all those expectations from childhood.</p>

<p>In the last analysis, if one cannot integrate well in the world, or act with good emotional intelligence, sadly, no superior IQ is going to make up for it.</p>

<p>It really is very difficult to be profoundly or highly gifted. It is a very misunderstood population, for certain.</p>

[marite]

<p>I agree with the term precocious. </p>

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Things do even out quite a lot for kids as they get closer to adulthood. Their precociousness of youth can become less pronounced later on, even if they continue to be highly gifted. And it can be a big burden, living with all those expectations from childhood.

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<p>Yes, to this, too.</p>

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It’s the combination of full grade accelleration with a rush to early college that I think leads to the end result of being a rueful 32-year-old, saddled with the burdens of career, a mortgage, and a couple of young children… wondering why it was so important to skip right past the “fun” part of one’s youth.

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<p>Well, I married young but did not have the burden of a mortgage until later (could not afford to, owing to grad school) and children even later. I don’t think that mortgages, marriage and children have much to do with precociousness.</p>