Glass ceiling or just realistic employers?

momof2inca · September 20, 2005, 10:00pm

H and I both work full time. H does more housework than me. I do more yard work than him. We cook equally as much. We shop for food equally as much (he goes to the regular grocery store and I go to the specialty store). We each do our own laundry. We split the kid driving. We supported each other through grad school (me first, then him). I think somehow we’ve managed to have equality and a good family life. Just sorta worked out that way. Oh, and I get paid just as much as the males in my line of work; he gets paid just as much as the females in his.

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is about highly educated women (or men) saying they plan to stay home with their children at some point.

berurah · September 21, 2005, 12:13am

As a mom who has been at home raising six children for the past 18+ years, I find the attitudes of the young women in the article refreshing. They are simply saying that their elite educations will not necessarily bind them to full-time, high pressure jobs during their childbearing (and raising) years.

In the “old days” it was assumed that the woman would put aside her education, goals, desires, job, etc. for a family. In the “newly liberated” days, those sacrifices were heavily frowned upon and women were pressured, by either themselves or others, to “prove” themselves in the high-powered workplaces.

Now, the pendulum is swinging back toward the middle. That is a GOOD thing. What these women are basically saying is that they want to receive a top-notch education, be prepared to work a good job, work for whatever time they want to or need to, and then have the luxury of CHOICE–choice to continue working full or part time or to stay home for several months or years or decades.

I have definitely been the recipient of stereotyped attitudes, and it continues to amuse me. In my college and grad school days, I’m sure that NO ONE could envision me as an at-home mom. I was an enthusiastic student who was always at the top of my class. Now, the people I meet are always stunned to find out that I have two degrees and that I didn’t get married until after I completed them–this is NOT the norm where I live. My poor husband married me just in time to absorb my (small) grad school loan lol as I stayed home to birth and raise our large family.

I am afraid that those who think everyone can have it all with NO sacrifices on anyone’s part are mistaken. Every choice requires its own sacrifice. Sometimes my husband gets frustrated that he works so many hours just to keep us afloat–not wallowing in luxuries. And yet, he has been spared many of the annoying and frustrating parts of parenthood and can concentrate on the “fun stuff”. And sometimes I get frustrated that all the minutiae falls to me and not to him…the field trip permission slips, dr. appts., dentist appts. orthodontist appts., school projects, etc., etc. But, I have gotten to see all of our children’s “firsts” and nurse each one of them until s/he weaned him/herself. For now, this is what works for US (though I will most likely be seeking a part time job soon!).

We have never had a support system. There were no grandparents or aunts or uncles to step in. I had to farm my kids out to four different people just to go to the hospital and give birth to our last child. We had no one we trusted to raise our children. So I stayed home. That said, I am the first to acknowledge that there are equally wonderful options which may include having two working parents, or a single working parent, or whatever is the case.

I guess I will never understand why this is as huge and divisive an issue as it is and continues to be. There is no one size fits all solution for raising a family.

~berurah

TheDad · September 21, 2005, 2:32am

JoeV, your view of “recorded history” must have been recorded from PBS costume dramas focused on upper class, conventional individuals from Regency & Victorian families.

HImom · September 21, 2005, 3:02am

I’m an attorney–the first woman the law firm hired to do anything more than typing EVER in the early 1980s. I loved my years of working in a highly successful personal injury firm and the women we hired. I was the only woman in the firm that took time out in my career to raise my kids. The other women moved ahead to become judges and an elected official. 
I cherish the years I “stopped out” of the labor force to spend time raising my kids. I did limited legal research & a LOT of volunteering at the preschool & later grade school, including running the PTA & helping establish a charter school. I was able to return to the legal profession when the kids were more “self sufficient” in middle school & now HS. I now have my dream job and love working part-time. 
Finances were not part of our decision about who was to stay home–I wanted to stay home, though I had a JD & husband had a BBA. He loved his job & I loved being with kids & volunteering; I probably could have made more than he was making at the time. We have never regretted our choices.
I hope our children are free to make the choices that work best for them and their loved ones when they start their careers and families. It can make all the difference!

sjmom2329 · September 21, 2005, 8:18am

berurah, you speak with the voice of experience. I’ve posted some on the other thread on this topic, but you and I could be twins, except I only had 2 kids! What bothers me about the article is the notion that raising children is a waste of education. I think that that’s ridiculous! What is more important than shaping the next generation’s attitudes and behaviors? Closing on another computer system was not going to change the world, but raising responsible, contributing members of society might. Many others could do my business type of job – but I don’t think anyone else could raise my kids the way I have, for better or worse.

In the bigger scheme of things, child rearing for those of us who have one or two kids takes about 20 years. By the time my younger son is in college, I’ll still have another productive 15 or 20 years. Having just shipped the oldest one off, I can tell young moms that the time flies by. I expected to fall apart when we left him at school, but I found I was elated about his opportunities instead. I don’t feel that I missed anything in his growing-up years, and it is time for him to spead his wings and be a man. Knowing myself, if I had not been home with him through the years, I would be filled with regrets about what I had missed.

Aries, you may find that you change over time. My younger sister had her first child at 40, and would like nothing more than to stay home with her. She’s a single mom, though, and has a full time nanny. It works for her with one child. Many options work with one child, but everything is harder with 2 or more. Like Berurah, my husband and I raised our children without family support, through several cross country and international moves. We did the farming out thing when I had unexpected major surgery, and were lucky to have a network of good friends. I can’t imagine how you did it with 6!

berurah · September 21, 2005, 9:20am

sjmom~

Your sentiments are very beautifully stated here, and I am in total agreement with you. For us, it was as simple as the belief that NO ONE had the emotional investment in our children that WE did, so we chose for one of us to stay home. Others are not affored that choice, and many would not have chosen the same way that we did if only because of the financial implications.

What’s interesting to me about the article is that it is not the recipients of the elite educations that consider it to be wasteful staying at home with children for awhile. That opinion is carried by those who, for whatever reason, feel entitled to certain expectations of others, even in the most personal realms. The bottom line is that what I (or those young women in the article) decide to do with our lives should not garner criticism from those who seek a different path for their own personal reasons.

I do feel that my education has benefitted both my family and my community–it has not been a waste. I have served on advisory councils for the various schools, and I have volunteered in the classrooms countless times. I am deeply involved in our community and am a frequent contributor to the editorial section of the local paper, particularly on issues of education and parenting. My education has enabled me to contribute in ways that I would otherwise not have. No, it was definitely not a waste.

Like you, I would have been left with overwheming regrets (and significant logistical issues!) had I not been home to care for my children. It is a choice I made. Again, that is the key here, CHOICE.

fondly, ~berurah

bandit_TX · September 21, 2005, 12:11pm

Very good discussion, but my question remains. Much has been made of the ‘glass ceiling’ and employers being slow to promote women, and fewer women in the executive suites. Is it fair to an employer to pay big bucks for an elite degree only to loose that employee as she hits her most influential and productive period? Likewise, is it fair to the employee to wait and see what track they are on before investing in the training and organizational experience necessary to climb the corporate ladder? Is the glass ceiling real or just good business?

And yes, I know that any employee can quit anytime. Consider the following:

Most director level and above positions include no compete clauses to prevent job hopping.
Most men aren’t going to quit and stay home, they likely will work somewhere
The same cannot be said for women on the mommy track

system · September 21, 2005, 4:44pm

I think it is a hard question and doesn’t have an easy answer. How to be fair to both employer and employee? I have no experience with upper management, lawyerdom, or any such thing, so I don’t know what rules, contracts, etc. they have. I can’t answer that part of the question.

I do think it would be fair and considerate of a woman who knows she will be quitting in a year or two to inform her business. On the other hand, many may not know. They may start work single, with no particular plans, then later get married and decide they want to be home with children. Women who put career first should not be penalized on the supposition that they may someday quit, just because others have. But how to make that work in the real world: I don’t know.

What are your ideas, bandit?

HImom · September 21, 2005, 4:55pm

There ARE men who care about quality of life issues as well & many quietly do “daddy track” without as much fanfare. My brother is a MD with a huge & successful HMO because the hours are much better than they would be if he were in private practice for himself. He takes vacation to help coach his son’s team & has good, predictable hours. His wife is a part-time MD & also has chosen this for quality of life. Both of them are happy & their respective employers are too.

It doesn’t really NEED to be an “either/or” proposition. Folks may have older parents that need care & need to adjust their schedule & career goals accordingly. Does that mean they shouldn’t have gone to colege & gotten the best ed for their goals? Does that mean they won’t ever be able to use their skils? From what I’ve seen, I’d say, definitely, “No.” There are no guarantees in life that employees will not burn out from their chosen professions or become disabled either & that is partly the individual, profession, & workplace.

What IS fair & to whom? Are employers fair when they lay employees off or outsource? I think we all make the best choices we can with the info we know & the resources available, as do employers. That seems to be all anyone can ever do.

bandit_TX · September 21, 2005, 7:40pm

Very good point HIM. Employers in many industries broke the ‘unwritten contract’ with professional employees by instigating layoffs. In our company, you could pretty well be assured a job for life (and a retirement) if you didn’t get fired for cause. That changed in the early 90s when the defense industry collapsed and telecom wasn’t yet booming. I can tell you from personal experience, attitudes changed. I worked one contract in the 80s where fully half of the staff ended up divorced by the end of the 5 year project. Work hours were a major part of that equation. Since the first professional layoff, that kind of dedication isn’t as common. You still see it in some management areas, but not in the rank and file engineers. Yes, we see more dedicated fathers now than we did then, but still most don’t leave. The ones that stay soon find their careers stunted, just like the females. I guess my point is – the glass ceiling is not a gender specific problem, it’s an attitude or values problem that affects both sexes.

HImom · September 22, 2005, 3:44am

My husband gets very annoyed at the “lack of work ethic” with “the younger generation.” (He nearly fought in Vietnam but was rejected for flat feet.) He gets so irritated that they walk off the job, just because their hours have officially ended when equipment they’re charged with keeping running 24/7 is broken. He is so exasperated that they don’t have the loyalty and pride in their work.

In Japan, it caused huge turmoil when companies broke the unwritten social contract & laid off employees (generally folks expected they were hired for life). The scenario is being played out at many companies & many professions.

In the legal profession, many attorneys do get divorced (one of the women attorneys I worked with got divorced, the other two broke out of long-term relationships, and I got married & switched to government practice before rachetting down to full-time mommy). I’m sure the hours & stresses of trial practice had a lot to do with the toll taken on relationships. None of the male attorneys got divorced or broke their relationships & all remain married decades later. At our firm, I honestly don’t believe there was a “glass ceiling.” We pretty much ended up with the dream jobs we wanted & pursued (even though I pursued & attained mine later, I got it).

When we learned I was pregnant, my husband had about a year of sick leave and a year of vacation time owed him at his job. He asked how much time he could take off to spend with the baby & was told while technically he could exercise his right to take his leave, if he was gone for too long they would assume his position was dispensible. He was pretty creative & for 6 weeks worked evenings from after dinner until midnight 4 nights/week & all day on Wednesday. He stayed home with the baby during the day & brought baby to nurse & we’d eat lunch together. My mom would watch the baby on Wednesday. My boss gave me 3 months of maternity leave with no hassle & we used those 6 weeks when my husband was staying home to see how it would all work out–ultimately deciding I’d stay home.

I think those 6 weeks were invaluable–after that, hubby & I agreed on the idea of me staying home to raise the baby.

My friend’s husband who stayed home to care for his kids while she went back to being a research scientist didn’t seem to have his career stunted, in particular. He built his lab in his basement & was able to “fit things in.” After the kids were older, they got a nanny to help out, but he still largely worked out of the home. He’s doing better than ever now.

My other good friend’s husband who spent a lot of time raising his kids while my friend stayed in the corporate world did so because he enjoyed it & was tired of working for a huge multinational. Likewise, I don’t think his career has suffered from his choices, nor his wife’s now that she’s decided to work on her own instead of being employed in the corporate world.

You’re right though, as a general rule, more women tend to make accommodations to their schedules & careers than men. I know many women who have cut back on their work hours & jobs due to family obligations–elderly relatives or children.

Glass ceiling or just realistic employers?

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