It’s good that you are posting these comments @GoForth since I think it will give parents/kids some insights into freshman year. College is not an extension of high school. It is a different experience entirely. And people need to think seriously about the mix of academics and music that will work best for them. And any schools will have small holes in their programs for classes/performance…and using peers or upper classmen (or summer programs) is not uncommon to fill these holes. Sometimes people tell you to avoid schools with graduate programs. However a great benefit of graduate students is that they are often highly skilled and poor! Many are willing to teach on the side…for a small fee or even free. They will often need to put small projects together and will recruit under classmen. My D greatly benefited from her peers in college (particularly grad students).
Thanks bridgenail. I envision taking notes +/- 2 years from the time of college transition to document one sample of things to be aware of during the transition. A college-prep sample timeline is already recorded, but not yet summarized, here. And then the first couple years of the program - how things shook out. Like a before-and-after, or a planned-vs-actual. Once I have a summary, it will be easier for reviewers to get the 50,000-foot view of how things went.
A few posts from other threads have merged into a thought. Those posts regard whether it is good to have graduate students in the music program. Maybe those grad students take the top spots and get most of the attention.
I was wondering why I was feeling so unconcerned about that. I think it might be due to the structure of the lab bands at UNT. On one hand, it is cool that there are grad students - you can see more heights of what can be done with music, let’s say. You would not be surprised when you see them after your undergrad is finished.
But aren’t they hogging up some great spots that you can’t access as an undergrad? For example, the one o’clock band, depending on instrument, might be nearly impossible to access as an undergrad. Maybe the two o’clock as well. And then maybe the next one, and then things start getting more achievable at some point. There are 9 big bands, numbered from 1 to 9. It would be very possible to eventually rise to the four o’clock band, perhaps, let’s just say, as an undergrad and feel that it is quite an accomplishment and a very satisfactory level from which to graduate.
S notes that he can mostly see the grades of difference among the bands. So, with a large enough set of bands, it seems there is a range of challenge available that will allow you to find a spot in a more precisely-tuned fit to where you are at in your development. So, can band size/quantity generally affect how people feel about the presence of grad students in the music program? If you felt there was a spot for you that was maximizing the challenge you could handle, would you feel “blocked”?
I think you make a good point. In the case of UNT, the one o’clock band brings a lot of prestige to the jazz program. If there weren’t those grad students bringing the level of performance up, it wouldn’t be quite so prestigious, and wouldn’t attract the same attention for the department - thus better opportunities for everyone. I think it’s really difficult to tease out the positives and negatives from a situation like that to determine which situation is “better.”
@GoForth - I think you answered your own question! At both of my D’s schools, there were a variety of levels/opportunities. With grad students, there are usually some higher levels available. I didn’t notice that it notably decreased opportunities for UG since UG students weren’t ready for some of the top opportunities. They needed to focus on the appropriate opportunities for their level. Again a good point for the college search. It is good to check what you could feasibly do Freshman year (meaning other Freshman do it often). It is hard for some kids to feel “sidelined” especially when they come off being a top dog at their school senior year. Freshman year can feel kind of wonky (so much energy and expectation and seemingly so few opportunities due to the hogs at the top). A smaller program with a more defined path and no grad students may be better for some students. When grad students are thrown into the mix, it can create some anxiety for talent level and ability to get there (however a good teacher should be running interference on this thinking - I know my D’s teacher did). I do think during sophomore year, any anxiety about grad students starts to wane. And for some kids, grad students are not an issue.
Edit: I do remember my D telling me that her teacher said something like “if you were that good you would have the role…but you don’t…so you better keep working on what I say”. She was pretty blunt. I think they get the opportunities when they are ready…schools have been doing this for awhile.
One other comment…I always write too much…but the struggle for my D with grad students wasn’t a lack of opportunities nor a lack of attn…it was the “psychological” factor. She could always figure a way to the “top”. That was motivating. When she got to UG, she realized in freshman year, she would never hit the top. The defined path was gone. No matter how hard she worked she’d never have a lead. It took some adjustment. Are you good and worthy if you can’t get to the top? It was an unexpected dilemma. She struggled with the level of competition and her place. Her teacher helped her with it…and my opinion is she would have had that struggle at some point and she passed through it. Luckily she had a good friend who could care less and was just happy to be in college. He was a good influence. Everyone is different.
Extra duties have appeared in the first couple months of college that were no known about in advance, by us. In addition to the anticipated mandatory concert attendance, practices, rehearsals, class attendance, and homework, there are a couple other (desired, BTW) activities that come up. These ‘might’ be more specific to rhythm section players.
The first one that appeared was being pulled into a sophomore-level improvisation class to play in the rhythm section for the horns and others who are actually registered in that class. I believe S was somehow just grabbed upon being seen and recruited into the class. So he attends it like another class, but just as a supporter.
The second thing that has popped up is recital/departmental support. S has been recruited into recitals for various horn or guitar players. Also recently someone’s recording session that I heard mention of.
There is actually another activity that popped up earlier on that wasn’t expected but is much more voluntary. S connected with some singers who requested more training in sight singing, so S has been hosting a couple-hour-per-week class in the dorm for them.
So, there seems to be plenty to do.
S had less choice over some of his class selection this first semester. He finds the schedule to be undesirable where you have a class followed by 1-2 hours of break, followed by the same pattern two or three times a day. His next semester is scheduled out with 3 classes back-to-back so he can have larger blocks of availability. Campus size makes it easy to get from one class to another in the ten-minute passing period.
@GoForth , I agree that the question of whether or not Grad Students are a positive or negative is tricky. There is nothing inherently wrong with having these more advanced, older students around to inspire, model technique and skill, etc… but I think it is a very instrument, or even path-specific issue. @bridgenail had a lot of great information about her daughter’s experience, and it sounds like she was in just the right place for her, and did very well! As a large voiced singer, my D will likely take more time solidifying her technique (this is usual for big voiced singers), but we most definitely prioritized an Undergraduate only (or Undergraduate heavy) program. My D’s career potential most probably lies in Opera. And in Opera, older, more advanced Graduate Students are always going to get the roles. So if there is any chance of being cast and getting some stage time as an Undergraduate, an Undergraduate only program is the way to go. There are lots and lots of stories of young singers spending a LOT of money being educated at top programs and never seeing a stage; in other words, private lessons and choir, and not much else. That seemed like an expensive way to study with a good teacher to us (IF you can even be guaranteed a good teacher). This is not everyone’s experience, but as a singer, it is a serious consideration. My D chose to focus on Undergraduate heavy programs, and ended up at Oberlin with a highly regarded, excellent teacher, whose entire focus is on her young students. As a freshman, we don’t know how it will all turn out; she may never be cast as a lead in an opera, but her chances are much, much greater to at least see some stage time. We looked upon College as career preparation, and if you are hoping to be an Opera Singer, you’ve really got to practice BEING an Opera Singer, which means being on stage (and everything that goes with that). For my D, this meant avoiding Graduate Heavy Programs (which, with Opera, are almost All The Programs).
An afterthought- Also, I think this is a somewhat specific phenomenon for Opera; staging Opera productions and training singers is enormously expensive.
I should add that my reason for pointing out that Opera is so expensive is that no program can afford to have levels of Opera that equate to the one o’clock and two o’clock bands (etc.) that @GoForth has mentioned. There ARE Opera Scenes, but it’s not the same thing. So a 19 or 20 year old in a program with 24 and 25 + year olds is going to be at a serious disadvantage for the handful of big roles.
S has provided some data. He says “one day is like three days.” That is a comparison to what he could do in three days while in high school versus one day now in the middle of first semester college. It’s an abstract measurement with a concrete number, but I’m journaling it here for reference.
Not sure I understand. Is it what he can accomplish in one day for music (maybe due to less academic work or stepped up expectations or both)? Or is it he has to pack 3 days of all work into one day? Trying to tease out also if this is a positive or more neutral comment about college work and/or music study freshman year. I hope these questions make sense.
Sorry for the mystical aspect of my note. I get excited by numbers, so I had to jot it down.
I take it positively - that he achieves 3 times the transcribing, song learning, rehearsing, practicing and performing than he did before going to college. I am sure the lower amount of homework helps, but even in his summer off, he did not have access to so many other musicians that he could be playing several sets a day at a moment’s notice from other band mates. I am sure some days he does run a little bit tired.
Understood. Yes living in the “one stop shop” for all your musical needs does increase efficiency to practice, learn, collaborate. In high school, all the driving around and living at home with parents isn’t quite as stimulating musically.
We are gearing up to go to Texas for the Thanksgiving week to visit S there. It will be 3 months since we last saw him. It feels like much longer. We are so enthusiastic about heading there.
Something truly unexpected came up at UNT. Someone there organized a Thanksgiving day meal for those students staying on campus for the holiday, and they made it a Vegan event. S is the vegan among us. For him, and therefore for us, it is a really special step that somebody took to put that together in one of the halls.
Here are some updates learned from S on our first day of visit.
[1] S took AP music theory in 10th grade. This gave time for some of the detailed information/terminology to fade by the time of college placement testing. He figures if his learning was fresh, it would have been good for testing out of two semesters of music theory, instead of one semester.
[2] S’s keyboard skills really picked up. He showed us in one of the practice rooms. He said that among the various classes, with sight-singing, aural skills, sight reading for bass, sight reading for piano, it all has started supporting each other, so his uptake on piano pieces is fast. I was surprised during his demo for us.
The Thanksgiving visit was nice. We got to see Christian McBride in concert, and, finally, the One O’clock Band. It was only 4 days of break for S, and a fair part the time on those days was for homework, practice, and exercise. A trip to the Fort Worth Zoo was a nice change of pace for S.
We’ll be heading back for Christmas. S has secured winter-break housing, and we’re plotting out what kind of trip calendar we’ll have. The couple weeks before classes start, s wants to intensify his practice for the spring auditions, so we’ll leave him to himself at that point.
I, personally, am wondering what his summer will be like. It seems like it is time to line things up. I wonder what he will find. Some classmates have spoken of cruise ship gigs.
Glad you had a nice trip. I always found college visits to be filled with lots of emotions. Happy, proud, bored (as they do homework and you wait around), excited, exhausted and my credit card hand was sore as we drove out of town.
I think one transition that is specific to music kids and parents is that the parents role in steering the students future diminishes quickly (in respect to jobs and career advancement). I knew little about music and did have some practice while my D was in high school in allowing other adults to steer her in her musical development. Still I felt I was involved in the process and was a “major player” lol. But in college I was demoted to the minors. In grad school I was retired.
During the college search I didn’t fully appreciate what role the faculty would play in my D’s future. Even now her past teachers and coaches are playing a role. I’m just a sounding board…and grateful for any chance to be included. But I always demurr to the teachers/coaches.
I mention this in respect to the summer. My D did nothing musical her first summer which is common enough for classical vocalists. And I would have never thought to inquire on the teacher’s thoughts. Still based on experience in your case I would wonder what his teacher has to say about summer (maybe you know the answer). These are just some thoughts on reading your comment.
Oooooohhhhh!!! Cruise ship gigs??? Is that a thing? Oh man seems like a great opportunity if you could land it! Of course also not having issues with seasickness too…
@bridgenail - it is nice that S is now in a place surrounded by examples and more sources of information about what is going on in the music world. I think a lot of ideas will probably come from the classmates. I’ll ask S if he plans to start asking around soon.
@SpartanDrew - Yes. You can search YouTube for cruise ship audition videos. There is even a video about a vegan musician and his experience on cruise ships. It IS a “thing”. Several videos by various cruise ship giggers talk about what it’s like. The main benefits - you have a steady gig without paying for transport, housing, and food. The drawbacks - your food choice can be limited, you might be tempted to drink a lot out of boredom, and of course the obvious things, like the limitations in how much space you have.
Yes peers play a big, important role. Upper classmen in particular can be a great source of information. Where to work. What to avoid. Pay to expect. And professional contacts. But it was the teacher’s role that surprised me over time. Not that my D always agreed with her teacher’s opinion even in roles and direction at school. She was always given wiggle room in her decisions unless her teacher really disagreed. In the long run, her teachers/coaches have been right. And the “right” peers are invaluable too (some peers unfortunately can be overly negative or competitive mostly in UG but that works it way out over time). My D has traveled to quite a few auditions this year. In all cities (mainly nyc) she stays with friends from UG and grad school. It makes auditions affordable.