<p>^ This seems to be irrelevant in college. One of D’s prof. noticed that she enjoys helping others after class and a lot of kids ask her because she was willing, had skills to explain well and obviously knew materisl. It landed her a job, she was hand picked by prof., never even applied for a position So, if kid is just nice, offers helping hand and do not worry about showing confidence and other superficial matters, others (teachers, profs, employers) will appreciate it. By the way D. developed her skills being helpful in HS. She never has been the one in front, loud and so forths. She graduated #1 in her HS class.</p>
<p>^ “irrelevant” in college, but apparently quite relevant prior to college, which I thought is the point of the discussion, right? (“hardest curriculum available” refers to pre-college) The bulk of the conversation over the last several pages minimum seems to be about who is responsible for discovering, offering, selecting or perhaps even creating “hardest curriculum” – the school, the parents, or the child herself/himself.</p>
<p>^Point of my post was to show what valuable skills and attitudes one can learn in HS to be successful afterwards. Also, if you finished reading my post, you would see, I indicated at the end that D’s attitude and hard work in HS resulted in her graduating #1 in her class, which is very valued on college application. She never tried to be loud, over confident and always detested people like that. This attitude also helped her whole tons in numerous interviews to selective programs.</p>
<p>Epiphany,
My D is in a Harkness setting, so she is typically involved in lots of discussion. It is up to the teacher to moderate the discussion; however, when a dominant student is paired with a less forceful teacher, the result may be what I indicated. The dynamic in each and every classroom is different, and it is hard to make generalizations. Sometimes, the atmosphere is not ideal - perhaps the particular mix of kids with a particular teacher is to blame - but the common thread is that more often than not, it’s the “self-advocating” student who sets the tone. And sometimes that tone can be very self-serving.</p>
<p>I understand that there are all types personalities in the world and kids must learn to adapt. This issue is of particular interest to me because several other posters have mentioned that more assertive personalities typically achieve more:</p>
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<p>My experience is that personality can only get one so far in school and in life. Eventually, talent, skill, hard work, and other more important qualities, will win out.</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree, Olive, but again I don’t want to derail the conversation too much. Dynamics can be difficult, yes, but the true professional in the classroom is one who can master & redirect those dynamics. A teacher, including a quiet one by personality, who finds discussion overwhelmed by a dominant student personality, should know how to change that atmosphere. There are all kinds of ways to handle that; I as a teacher have had to do that myself. </p>
<p>In the larger picture (the thread), I do believe that we cannot “leave it up to the student” to direct his or her own education, particulary in young years. Now it’s true (and I’ve said that), that as the student ages, increasingly more initiative & responsibility should be encouraged & required from him/her. But I think early on in the thread the ‘presiding’ issue became one of equity, and I think that issue is still (hopefully) on the table.</p>
<p>Re post 360:</p>
<p>I was actually quite sympathetic to the teacher’s concerns. She knew that S knew the materials. She just wanted to make sure the other students knew them as well, and to encourage them to be more active in their own learning. And S agreed that other students needed to have a chance to speak up and show they had gotten it, even if they did so after he did. I don’t really fault the teacher; it’s hard enough, especially with this age group, to maintain order in the class, keep the students focused and also teach them!
But it did have the unhappy effect that S learned not to speak up and this carried into high school and even college. However, when it came to group work, he often did 3/4 of it on his own. And at home, he could carry on and on about his passion.</p>
<p>Re your post 365, I do agree with your second paragraph.</p>
<p>marite, again I don’t want to go into further examples of how to redirect such situations, but in some cases (not with your son, but with some classes of too many leaders, too many show-offs, too many whatever) it’s important to replace whole-class discussions with other ways to enable participation. That was and is still my own “problem,” often, when as an adult I’m in a discussion, seminar, workshop, etc. – and the leader/moderator has to make sure that too few participants are not carrying the load for the whole group. I don’t speak up because I want to dominate but because I enjoy participating & usually find it helpful to others. Your S seems to have survived just fine, then and later, but some students are more permanently discouraged. We will never guarantee equal outcomes - whether in class discussions or in college admissions, but a teacher can find many ways to ensure that self-confidence is encouraged, and knowledge well-rewarded, as maximally as possible.</p>
<p>Now back to the previous discussion…
:)</p>
<p>Regarding post #367, I think it’s easier said then done. I think it’s an exception rather than the norm. My kids have experienced similar to marite’s S experience from K-12 and at college level.</p>
<p>epiphany:</p>
<p>I always appreciate your posts about pedagogy. I do think there may be many different ways to encourage participation by all. My main reason for mentioning my son’s experience was not to discuss pedagogy as such but to argue that not all 6 year olds can advocate for themselves. Either they are shy or they are passed over by adults, often well-meaning ones. And some behavioral patterns are established early on. My S did have involved and savvy parents who either advocated on his behalf or pushed him to advocate; and he also had the good fortune to have some very receptive teachers at various points in his career.
I was mainly trying to argue against generalizations. Not every child should be accelerated; not every student has access to acceleration; not every school system is able to provide acceleration at little or no cost; not every child has knowledgeable parents; not every child is able to advocate on his or her own behalf. And so on.
Which is why, to go back to the original thread, I totally support the practice of judging a student’s achievements in the context of the resources available to the student as well as of the student’s intended course of studies. I do believe that, on this, you and I are in agreement.</p>
<p>When my oldest was in 1st grade, he complained about how rude many of the children were. I didn’t make much of it, but then every day for a whole week he tried to ask the teacher a question but was unsuccessful. I couldn’t understand why, and thought he must have just forgotten and was lying to me to save face. But then after volunteering in the classroom several times, I figured it out. While the teacher had implemented the typical rules of classroom behavior, she nonetheless very frequently ignored them and rewarded the rule-breakers. For example, if the rule was that you must raise your hand to ask a question, nevertheless she would always call on those who started to blurt something out without waiting to be called on. Meanwhile, those with their hands raised never got a chance to talk. I also saw the polite children waiting their turn in line at her desk for 10 minutes to ask her for help, and yet be unsuccessful because she would respond first to those who butted in front of the line.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the sort of child who is successful in our public schools is the sort who is comfortable with pushing his way to the front of the line and doing whatever it takes to get what he wants. There was a time when I wondered if by teaching my kids to be polite, respectful, obedient, and patient I had actually done them a disservice and ill-prepared them for this competitive world. I’m somewhat sad to report that my S eventually learned to be pushy when he needed to be, and now he would probably look down on people who are too shy/weak/stupid to do the same. I blame adults for rewarding rudeness, and schools for not upholding their own standards nor enforcing their own rules across the board.</p>
<p>My D, being a social people-pleasing sort, would never want to act in the assertive (sometimes bordering on arrogant and self-serving) way her brother sometimes does. And that, by the way, brings up the issue of gender differences and how boys often garner more of the teacher’s attention than girls–another reason I’m uncomfortable with the idea of self-advocacy as the ticket to opportunity.</p>
<p>Lastly, I think what some might call “self-created opportunity” when it benefits one’s own child, could just as easily be labeled “favoritism on the part of the teacher” when an exception is made that benefits someone else’s child. Here’s a recent example: All high school students in honors and AP social studies classes were given a handout describing the history honor society and eligibility requirements. One requirement was that the student must participate in an club or organization related to history or social studies. My D did not belong to such a group, but considers herself a strong student in history and social studies. So she filled out the application anyway, and in that club membership portion she wrote about what she was going to do that summer (hadn’t even done it yet!) which related to social studies. She was accepted. Should she have been? No, I don’t think so, though it does prove the point some of you are making about being confident and just asking as if you were entitled to it.</p>
<p>But I can tell you that my girlfriend was pretty ticked off because her D didn’t submit an application because the rules said she didn’t meet the eligibiltiy requirements. </p>
<p>So, is the lesson that my kid was just smarter, more savvy, and out-of-the-box thinking than the other girl? Or is the lesson really that many adults are wimps with no integrity or standards, and often make decisions capriciously or based on how much they like the student who’s asking for something or on how much squeaking the wheel does?</p>
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<p>I think it’s eminently possible to put forth a compelling argument to be an exception to a rule (with good reason), or to ask for possibilities that hadn’t been thought of before, while still being polite, respectful and patient. I think people are conflating asking for opportunities with pushiness or rudeness.</p>
<p>Point taken, pizzagirl, though I do worry about exactly who will most likely benefit and benefit first from the “exceptions” if they are allowed to occur. Will it be the children of the teachers’ friends? Will it be the kids whose parents volunteer most? Will it be the best-looking, best-dressed children? My viewpoint is probably jaded by all the nepotism and injustice I’ve seen in our district.</p>
<p>TheGFG -</p>
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<p>I agree with many of your points. From my perspective, I thought that I was teaching my kids to be polite and respectful, not pushovers in a classroom of “self-advocating” kids. Silly me. I think the parents of these kids actually advise them to make sure they “get theirs” ahead of everyone else.</p>
<p>This is not a public school problem, it’s a symptom of our “me first” culture. My kids attend private school, and we see the same thing there.</p>
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That’s quite a generalization. I take it you mean your public schools and not all public schools? I consider both of my public high school graduate sons to be successful (not sure what your definition of “successful” is), and neither one pushed his way to the front of the line and doing whatever it takes to get what he wanted.</p>
<p>Olive007,
"Eventually, talent, skill, hard work, and other more important qualities, will win out. "</p>
<p>-Strongly agree based on my D (college junior) experience, who has been so far very successful in HS and college, academically and outside of academics (campus job, research opportunities,…even nomination to be Sorority President - had to decline because of higher priority commitments). I would add that being generally nice, polite and helpful to others in addition to above are also winning qualities.</p>
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<p>I can’t speak for any other schools, but this seems to be very true in our local HS. The “diva” behavior tends to be rewarded at the same time the school makes a big show of talking about “character”.</p>
<p>^ It was very untrue in D’s HS.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion and one that I had not thought much about. I actually have one that in a situation like ones that GFG describes “calls” the teacher on it. He has been called “exasperating” by teachers for years and years. I cringe because I was always the “good girl” who never wanted to rock the boat so when I hear about my son calling out teachers who say one thing and do another my mind immediately jumps to insubordination, but so far I just hear the teachers describe him as “exasperating” and no teacher has ever used the work insubordinate. Deep inside I love that my son “sticks” up for the “good kids” who get passed over by teachers who are dealing with the uber-aggressives and I think it’s OK that he believes in walking the talk and sticking up for himself and others, but he is an exasperating kid…I’m guessing because he’s the third I must have ignored him too much when he was little so he learned to vocalize and stick up for equal attention. Yikes,I just realized I did this to him.</p>
<p>By “our public schools” I meant my community’s.</p>
<p>A well-rounded curriculum is best with a few honors courses in subjects of interest.</p>
<p>A very well-rounded curriculum generally includes:</p>
<p>Biology, Chemistry, and Physics (3 Lab Sciences)
Calculus or Precalculus in the Senior year
3 or 4 years of a Foreign Language
World History, US History, American Gov’t and/or Economics
American Lit, World Lit, British Literature</p>
<p>Meaningful electives that interest you, usually from the 5 core subjects of Social Studies, Science, Math (i.e. Statistics), any Art/Music class (well-rounded)</p>
<p>Colleges want to see that you challenge yourself, so Physics and Calculus/Precalculus at any level (CP/Honors/AP) shows that you are taking difficult subjects in your Senior Year of high school</p>