<p>‘I must say Oxford is a dump, both the colleges themselves (with the exception of Christ Church and John’s) and the city all had an air of decreptitude about i’</p>
<p>You are obviously totally blind or totally stupid. I think i can safely say that oxford is not a ‘dump’ on this website, with some of the most celebrated buildings in the world. Ahh… The city of dreaming spires.</p>
<p>If Oxford is a dump, Harvard is the lowest ebb on gods earth.</p>
<p>I was merely voicing my opinion, kind sir… there’s no need to get offensive. It’s purely a subjective opinion; there are, after all, those who find Picasso entrancing and still others who find it highly unpalatable… and I think I DID mention that while the exteriors of the buildings are nice the actual insides are not. I liked Magdalen, but like Lincoln, Exeter, and Hertford it had a not so nice smell or atmosphere inside.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/2005-6/supps/adstats05.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/2005-6/supps/adstats05.pdf</a></p>
<p>For fall 2005 entry, 12,496 applicants, 3,214 got offers - probably not everyone made their offer (typically 3 As at A-Levels or a US equivalent 6-7 IBs or three 5s in specified AP tests). In evaluating admissions results, it is important to remember that a student is only allowed to apply to either Oxford or Cambridge (UCAS, the central admissions system, tracks that). If a student could apply to both, each university would probably have 24,000 applications.</p>
<p>20.4% of the applications were from outside the UK, 12.4% accepted. 111 conditional offers for those with “Other” qualifications (which includes the US and some other non-IB, non-A-Levels qualifications). Success rate for open applications (a typical US students would make an open application) 11.7%.</p>
<p>If you compare these percentages with the hypothetical doubling of applications that would occur if a student was allowed to submit for both Oxford and Cambridge, the percentage of acceptances would drop by about half. If the Ivy League had a similar system, you could imagine that Harvard might get 40-50% of all applications for Ivy League colleges, and the other 7 would receive less than 10% each.</p>
<p>There are also filters that limit the number of students applying to Oxbridge, as many secondary schools discourage applicants, or even limit the number who are allowed to apply, and there are few candidates who do not possess strong qualifications. In the US, applications are totally laissez-faire, and colleges want to get their yield up as much as possible, therefore they allow and even encourage anyone to apply, even those without any real chance of being admitted. </p>
<p>In addition, the evaluation methods are quite different, as the Oxbridge process is focused to a greater degree on academic merit and academic potential (since they only admit on academic merit/potential, and there are no legacies, recruited athletes, URMs, development admits, or admits for special talents - the Olympic athlete, young movie star, or politician’s child might get rejected). The academic interview (meant to demonstrate passion for the subject(s) and potential - assessed by how well the student reasons about academic questions that are posed by the tutor) is really a sort of trial by fire (Plato - “running the gauntlet”). The subject tests that are given to all candidates in their subject (or, if two or three subjects, in the core subject) rank applicants against each other. Applicants for humanities subjects are required to send samples of graded written work. If a student doesn’t stack up well against other candidates in these evaluations, he/she will probably not get an offer, even if he/she presents a sterling academic record in the application.</p>
<p>That being said, I have posted elsewhere that for some courses (majors) it is easier for a top student to get admitted to Oxford than to a comparable college in the US, since they evaluate candidates focused on subject(s) they selected. There are a few sweet spots, for instance, Classics. Best department in the world, but since the UK changed their secondary school program and eliminated Latin, there are fewer applicants. 30% of those with “other” qualifications were accepted. Modern Languages 26.7%, versus 7.7% for Economics and Management and 2.9% for Law (I guess everyone wants to be Tony Blair, that was his course). In the sciences, 4.4% “Other” accepted for Medicine (pre-med, more or less), 9% for Psychology, Philosophy, and Physiology, whereas there were 36% “Other” accepted for Mathematics and Computer Science and 27.3% for Geology.</p>
<p>As I’ve also mentioned elsewhere, one type of student who can more easily get admitted to Oxbridge than to a top US college is the very intelligent and dedicated student who has a passion for their subject(s) but may have no ECs, and/or no community service, and/or no “leadership” on their application - i.e., no non-academic bells and whistles, and possibly a shy or quiet personality, etc. Once admitted, some of these students may stay in their room and study all the time - that’s ok by Oxbridge, not really desired by comparable US colleges. (If you are a student who sees yourself in this description, you really might want to look into Oxbridge - they will understand you!)</p>
<p>I’ve been following this with interest, having degrees from both Harvard (undergrad) and Oxford (M.Phil). D has an offer from her first choice Oxford college for English and is awaiting results of her US applications. There have been a number of thoughtful posters generously sharing their experience (Thank you, Yulsie!) But more often the discussion has disintegrated into a ridiculous brawl: e.g. which has the prettier view from which bridge?! As other posters have said, we are in apples and oranges territory in trying to make comparisons. Take the applicant numbers. In many schools here (including D’s), students are simply not allowed to apply to Oxbridge without school approval. Imagine a similar situation in a US HS - impossible. I believe Oxford and Harvard seek very different qualities in their candidates. At a Classics Open Day at Oxford last year, an admssions tutor said “don’t bother telling us about your ECs on your personal statement. We don’t care. We are only interested in one thing: how well you think.” Of course there are cross admits to Harvard and Oxford (like Yulsie’s son), but by acceptance time, the candidate should have enough self knowledge to realize which of these very different approaches to education best suits his/her individual needs.</p>
<p>Americans applying to Oxbridge please understand the Admissions organization across the pond view the straight A student taking 5 AP’s who has worked extremely hard as being inferior to their own. They believe the American system hands out A’s randomly. They view EC’s as a sort of joke- a waste of time used by Americans to avoid “thinking”- Prizes of any kind awarded in the American culture are viewed as lucky wins or “carnival prizes”. Those of us who have had the misfortune of meeting with educators and their representatives overseas know this. It is very difficult to overcome this thinking- and why bother-One simply cannot overcome their arrogance and prejudice. Americans are inferior- full stop.</p>
<p>BirdloverFla, I wouldn’t try to dispute your impressions based on your own experience. If you’ve been sticking close to your actual experiences in your stories on this thread, you probably had the bad luck to run into some tutors with very bad attitudes.</p>
<p>I can just say that my son hasn’t experienced anything remotely like this - his tutors (five individuals to date) and fellow students have all accepted him as one of the gang from day one, and he hasn’t heard one negative remark about either his qualifications or the US educational system.</p>
<p>If the social scence is a major criteria, then cut out Oxford. The “social scence” at Oxford is limited to local pubs. Most students at Oxford are virgins and they spend the majority of their time studying since after all, Oxford’s main focus is academics. I heard some of the Oxford chicks are extremely hot, but they come from extremely conservative families and will slap anyone who tries to hit on them. I learned all this from the Oxford students themselves. If your passion is academics and advanced education, then Oxford is the place for you.</p>
<p>I’ve not quite gone through Harvard v. Oxford decision, but I did get into Princeton and Oxford this year. Even though ED didn’t apply then, Princeton was my hands-down first choice.</p>
<p>Oxford’s got top-notch academics…but so does Princeton. But unfortunately, Oxford doesn’t have the same appreciation for ECs that Princeton does. To me, the college experience is to be immersed in a intellectual-social environment for four years that best allows you to develop as a rational human being and face the real world. The quality of education being equal, I felt Princeton’s environment would best allow me to continue this personal growth.</p>
<p>I would also argue that for a good few US applicants, it may be easier to get into Oxbridge than into HYP. I had 1590 on my SAT (old), straight 5s on 5 AP exams, 800/800/800/790 on my SAT IIs, a whole load of prestigious/difficult math/science recognition, and all of it impressed my Oxford interviewer measurably. By the Oxford standards of measuring intellectual performance, I don’t know if I could’ve done any better. Yet at the time, I had serious doubts about whether I’d get into HYP. Such students are plentiful at my competitive public school in NJ, and yet all of them struggle to find a place at HYP. </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong: there are students who may find it tougher to get into Oxford than into HYP…but I can assure you that there are a fair share of bright Americans that aren’t “well rounded” enough to get into HYP that could get into Oxford. That also gets us into the issue of why they don’t apply and why Oxford doesn’t attract the top 1% of US students, but let’s leave that for later.</p>
<p>I don’t mean, by the way, to criticize Oxford as being “inferior”, and there are students for whom that would be the best destination. But it’s vital to realize that not everyone is that student.</p>
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<p>Are you kidding me… the Oxford student is more social/better looking/wilder on the average than the Harvard student, in my opinion.</p>
<p>For one, it seems like hardly anyone who goes to Oxford was actually from around the area; it’s EXTREMELY diverse and the overall ambience I got was that it’s a mix of funk/classic/mod.</p>
<p>I went to visit Oxford not too long ago. What I found is that the inhabitants of Great Britain are rather sexually free compared to Americans. Americans, on the whole, are bigger prudes by a mile.</p>
<p>I like Harvard, Cambridge, and Oxford. I think that they are cool universities.</p>
<p><em>I just read about the information below and decided to share with everyone.</em></p>
<p>However, it has been shown that other countries have a better quality of education than America. I’m not talking about England but of other countries across the world. Anytime a foreigner attends an American institution, they find that it is significantly easier than the education from their respective country. A documentary was done on this topic and it had shown that American education is not up to par with the education of other countries. That is why MOST foreigners breeze through American education easily.</p>
<p>The reason that foreigners want to attend American universities is that American universities have more recognition around the world unlike a university from, let’s say, Kuwait [no offense to anyone from Kuwait]. One of the reasons for this: America has money to spend while other countries don’t.</p>
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<p>If American colleges are so crummy then how do they earn all that world-wide recognition? And why would all those foreigners be so keen to attend such awful American schools? Wouldn’t they want to get a good education for their trouble and money?</p>
<p>CautiousPessimism, the Oxford students mostly tend to be CRAZY into their ECs - it seems to be exactly like the reputation that Harvard’s students have - everyone plunging into ECs with the same general drive that got them there in the first place. </p>
<p>A significant number try rowing (6AM practices - shudder), many are on a sports team, there are tons of social events, sponsored by the university, sponsored by the colleges (balls, bops, dinners) and by the departments (dinners, teas, cocktail parties). There is a large variety of very inexpensive lessons and classes available to all - languages, martial arts, music lessons, ballroom dancing, computer science, debating, political clubs (and yes, anime and D&D), etc. etc. And the performing arts scene is HUGE - there are several orchestras (musicals have top-notch pits!) chamber groups, college choirs, chamber singers, a cappella groups, a lively street busking tradition, and so many plays every week, you could never see them all. Just one cool example: one group is doing Narnia next term, in a college garden, with full battle scenes. </p>
<p>All that = it’s only possible to be bored if you have no interests.</p>
<p>One interesting tidbit - in Into the Woods at the Oxford Playhouse last month, Cinderella’s Prince was a US graduate student, the former president of the Princeton musical theatre club. (He was wonderful, and the audience loved him).</p>
<p>coureur: I never said American colleges were crummy. i guess you didn’t read my ENTIRE message. I just posted the information because I thought it was interesting. Being an American kid, I had a biased view about our institutions. I never knew that other countries had tougher courses and such. I just wanted to share it with everyone. -_-</p>
<p>You are right - you didn’t say that US schools are crummy; you said (or quoted without giving a source) that American schools are “not up to par with the education of other countries”.</p>
<p>So I guess I need to restate: why do American schools have such world wide recognition if they are “not up to par”? And why would any foreigner spend all that time, effort, and money to get into and attend a “not up to par” American school?</p>
<p>coming from a Western European:
Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford are all superior to Cambridge, Oxford or any European insitution in terms of undergraduate education. They’re harder to get into, academics are more rigorous, faculty is more famous.</p>
<p>The kids overseas were terrific the profs were arrogant. The kids were drunk all the time. More ec’s here in the US</p>
<p>The kids overseas were terrific the profs were arrogant. The kids were drunk all the time. More ec’s here in the US</p>
<p>The kids overseas were terrific the profs were arrogant. The kids were drunk all the time. More ec’s here in the US</p>
<p>It really depends</p>
<p>coureur: i watched the documentary but i can’t find it online…>.< You have a valid point as well. I am just voicing these opinions from my international penpals. meh. they’re just opinions.</p>