<p>Sorry for digging up this thread…</p>
<p>But just wondering, as someone who wants to take few courses for a semester at HES before returning to my actual college, I am wondering if it is possible to take 1-2 HES courses and 1-2 Harvard College courses?</p>
<p>Has anyone ever taken math courses at HES and how was it structured?</p>
<p>Don’t be fooled, it’s the same classes down to the course numbers, books (look at the Coop), and most professors. What you don’t get is the difficult and strange admissions process, the clubs, the houses, etc… HES is a great place to start if you want to transfer to a great school, or get accepted into a great masters program. In my HES experience I have also taken Harvard college classes with regular Harvard college students during the day and wow, found them to be no different than the HES classes. Is it Harvard College - NO, is it Harvard U - YES. People who attempt to compare the 2 schools are missing something; Harvard HES is most likely the best nontraditional education offered anywhere. In the big picture I would call it the Harvard of adult education, and it should be compared to those schools and programs and not to Harvard College. The fact that there is animosity between Harvard College students and the HES is remarkable and points to an anomaly where you can score a great SAT but have few interpersonal skills, or suffer from an ego so fragile and yet so inflated that anything could threaten you into an attack of the most juvenile sort (Hillary Duff rant in the Crimson).
Stop comparing my HES with the College, they are 2 different animals.</p>
<p>P.S. Harvard University is ranked #1 in 2011, not Harvard College, most people only think of Harvard Law as being an elite education, the rest of Harvard is pretty pedestrian, including HES and the College.</p>
<p>"Senior Lecturer in Mathematics Paul G. Bamberg Jr. 63, whose class on classical geometry is open to both undergrads and Extension School students, echoes Greenbergs positive experience with HES. Bamberg emphasizes that everyone is held to the same standards, saying that, they all sit in the same classroom and take the same exams, and over the past three years the Extension students have done as well as the undergraduates. </p>
<p>According to Bamberg, the two highest grades last year were earned by Extension students. For the past two years Extension students outperformed their peers on his midtermone even earning a perfect score. "</p>
<p>Cited article in the crimson:
[Virtual</a> Veritas | FM | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/4/12/virtual-veritas-russell-russ-mcalmond-like/]Virtual”>The Harvard Crimson)</p>
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<p>Hi Wildchartermage,
While you can enroll in classes at HES, it’s not possible to enroll in classes at Harvard College. I hope this answers your question. Most folks who attend HES are there to take a few classes and transfer those credits back to their home institution. Therefore, the vast majority of people attending HES are non-degree candidates. Many of them do not plan to complete a degree program. It’s not that they can’t obtain the grades to get in. Many of the 10,000+ students who are taking classes at HES have the grades to get into the ALB or ALM degree program; but they choose not to pursue that option.</p>
<p>Good god, this thread is still alive! </p>
<p>Two years ago (before I started attending HES), sakky and I got into an ethical debate about the way an HES degree should be represented on a CV (page 7 or so), and though I still see his reasoning as lacking in the ethics department, I have a different perspective on the whole debate - now that I am 56 undergrad credits deep into HES.</p>
<p>The thing is, why should anyone give a DAMN about college vs. HES anyway? Except maybe certain College students who, youngsters that they are, will defend whatever institution they happen to be going to above all others. I mean, some of them s*** on Yale on the regular for Christ’s sake, another outstanding and comparably excellent school. Maybe we should consider ourselves in good company.</p>
<p>Is the Business School better than the Public Health School? What about the Dental School? Is the Law School better better than the Kennedy School? Come on, these comparisons are all ridiculous. HES and the College are different components of the same institution, tailored to different audiences, and anyone claiming the College as a superior school can really only do so on a handful of points: admissions exclusivity, sports, house life, larger selection of classes, and cost.</p>
<p>If people want to give credence and value to the actual admissions process, fine. Sports? Ok, you got us there; the College whoops HES. However, if you value the education itself, then the two are pretty damn close in quality and expectation (Caveat: some professors in classes I have taken with both HES and College students in them sometimes curve the two sections differently). Either way, the College should be proud of themselves and their place in the University, just as the Extension School should be. We shouldn’t even be comparing them as “better” or “worse” (what does that mean anyway?)</p>
<p>The point here is that we Extension students are here for the EDUCATION! We want to learn from the best in the world, it’s that simple. The professors, even the ones from other schools, are damn good. Harvard faculty members are experts in their field and conducting cutting edge research, teaching pretty much the same classes to the College as they do to the Extension School. That is the key point that no one can argue with. Ignoring this fact ignores the intrinsic value of the education itself. The Faculty of Arts and Sciences gives HES and the College an incredible resource of world class educators. All the rest of this debate is crap.</p>
<p>Oh, and redlinekid2, degree candidates can apply for something called “Special Student” status at the College, allowing them to take classes at the College that may be really interesting but unavailable at the Extension School. You pay the full College tuition though.</p>
<p>See:<br>
[Special</a> Students: Admissions - The Graduate School of Arts and Sciences](<a href=“http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/programs_of_study/special_students_admissions.php]Special”>Special Students | Graduate School of Arts and Sciences)</p>
<p>So, good luck to everyone who may be thinking of going pursuing a degree the Extension School. Ignore the haters, respect the College, and be proud of HES. It’s a real challenge, but if you can do it, you deserve to call yourself a Harvard graduate!</p>
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<p>I too had entirely forgotten that this thread even existed. Thank you, daymo, for refreshing my memory regarding an interesting philosophical debate that we had. Furthermore, I want to re-emphasize, that nothing that I had said in our prior discussion was ever meant to be a personal insult directed towards you (or anyone else), but if you feel that that’s what happened, then I hope you accept my apologies. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, I continue to maintain my previous stance: a resume is a marketing document, nothing more, and you owe potential employers no more honesty than they are willing to provide you. And let’s be brutally truthful: employers misrepresent themselves and manipulate people all the time. What is the entire marketing industry if not skillful misrepresentation and manipulation? </p>
<p>To reiterate what I said years ago, I’m not saying that I endorse the current state of business. Indeed, I deplore it. I personally wish that employers and (potential) employees would be entirely honest with each other and employers would hire on the basis of pure merit. But employers have demonstrated time and time again that they utterly refuse to play ball, but instead will deliberately withhold key information from you while leveraging whatever information you do provide against you. If the firm is thinking of selling off or even shutting down the division to which you are being hired, they’re not going to tell you that, despite the fact that that would be clearly crucial information that would determine whether you want to join. And employers have been shown to routinely reject candidates because they’re physically unattractive or supposedly ‘too old’, or the ‘wrong’ race/gender/sexual-orientation. {For example, a newly published sociological paper demonstrates that {artificial} resumes that include mentions of membership to college LGBT clubs are far less likely to receive callbacks than mentions of membership to general college social clubs. Given that, I therefore think it is entirely within ethical bounds for LGBT people to deliberately conceal their orientation when recruiting.} </p>
<p>Which leads to the concept of morality; I am well aware that I’ve been accused of moral ambiguity on this thread before. But I don’t think I am being morally ambiguous. After all, the concept of morality is inherently based upon an implied social contract, where I choose to refrain from certain behavior because I expect others to do the same. For example, I don’t cut in front of others in line because I expect that others will not cut in front of me. But such a sense of shared morality does not seem to apply in the case of hiring. Like I said, employers have demonstrated time and time again that they will use information as a strategic weapon. If they’re not willing to play ball, why should you? Similarly, if everybody is cutting in line in front of you, then you are perfectly within your rights to do the same.</p>
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<p>Umm…because you are a better person than they are?</p>
<p>To adopt a strict code of treating others with no higher degree of ethics than you are treated yourself creates at least two problems:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It creates a situation where you have no ethical standards of your own. You simply become a mirror of how you are treated. A sad situation for anyone seeking to live an examined life.</p></li>
<li><p>It invites a race to the bottom. As you perceive that others are treating you poorly, you immediately lower you own ethical standards. And they respond in kind. You soon have an arms race to see who can shed all their ethics the fastest.</p></li>
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<p>(PS: I’m not commenting specifically about Harvard Extension School in any of this).</p>
<p>Coureur, then let me ask you - why exactly does behaving ethically necessarily involve always volunteering full information about yourself, especially if you have a legitimate reason to fear that that information will be abused? </p>
<p>To give you an extreme case in point, what if employers requested that we provide nude (and explicit) pictures of ourselves as a condition of employment, under the guise that they somehow wanted ‘full information’ about who they might hire. Would we be somehow ethically obligated to provide it? It certainly seems to me that only the porn industry could legitimately and ethically request that we provide that sort of information. Otherwise, even if we had no issue with providing such photos to employers, we would be rightfully concerned that they would be abused. {For example, some employers would inevitably leak those photos.} </p>
<p>Now if you think that’s just an extreme case, well, that’s the same rationale for why Americans are under no ethical obligation to provide even (clothed) photos of themselves on their resumes, under the rationale that employers would then have an easy way to screen for physically attractive people. {I understand that such a requirement is standard procedure for hiring in certain other countries.} Similarly, American society has reached a general agreement that female candidates are under no obligation to reveal that they’re pregnant (and recruiters are barred from asking on pain of a lawsuit). Nor are Americans required to reveal their religion, their political party, their weight, their marital status, their exact age, or how many children they have. Again, surely plenty of employers would like to know all of these details. But we are under no obligation to provide any of that information, and I doubt that many Americans feel any ethical issue with concealing that information.</p>
<p>Since we are therefore feel perfectly ethically justified with concealing plenty of information from employers anyway, I don’t see the issue with concealing exact details of your educational experience. Why not? Like I said, a resume is a marketing document, nothing more. Hiring is purely a business transaction, nothing more. Employers are not your friends. You are under no obligation to provide full disclosure to them, especially given the fact that they have repeatedly proven to be unworthy of that level of trust.</p>
<p>This is a point that extends far beyond the issue of the Extension School, but rather is a truism in life. Don’t be naive, and make sure to protect yourself. Employers are not your friends, they never will be, they do not really have your best interests at heart, and you should never expect them to. Employment is purely a business transaction where information is a strategic asset that should never be frittered away.</p>
<p>Hi Daymo,
I am well aware of the Special Student Status program. However, without the approval of SSS application, it’s not possible for a HES student to take classes at Harvard College.</p>
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<p>It doesn’t always involve that. Where did I say it did? There is a wide gulf between keeping some information about yourself private and behaving unethically. If a store overcharges me for something, does that justify my shoplifting from them? Since when did two wrongs make a right? Choosing to behave just as low and dishonest as those around you, as I said, is a race to the bottom.</p>
<p>Thanks for that Bientot, Starlight reminds me of why Congress is so screwed up! Augh the ironic stupid intelligence sprinked with arrogance! This is why the US is where it is today!</p>
<p>@Causarinatree- Regarding your post: </p>
<p>"…because I recently discovered the ALM-IT program with an emphasis in Digital Media Arts and Instructional Design and would like honest feedback on the admissions process. I know what Harvard states about 3 courses with B’s, solid programming/math background, good financial standing with the school for admission. However, I wonder if anyone has been rejected (reading other forum postings I am fairly certain that some have) despite meeting the stated criteria? </p>
<p>I am curious because I have a less than desirable academic background. I do possess a bachelors degree but took time off from school and didn’t graduate until I was 27. I am 38 now and I am a world away from where I was at a younger age. I found success and had academic success in college, but my transcript is like a roller coaster, with a 4.0 one semester followed by a 2.0 the next. It is littered with grades I would rather not disclose but know will be seen when reviewed for any chance at admission. Even if I were to complete the 3 courses with excellent grades, would there be any real chance at admission? If not I really don’t intend to throw away money course-by-course if I am fooling myself and I am wondering if anyone here can give me an honest opinion on this matter."</p>
<p>I am curious about this same question as I am probably at the same point that you were when you posted this. Did you ever find out if there is additional selectivity to HES other than the listed requirements?</p>
<p>I am very interested in enrolling at HES and getting an ALB. Please direct me as to what classes to take first.</p>
<p>Once you’er in does HES have financial aid?</p>
<p>I think it’s funny they use Bamberg’s class as an example of the level of HUES. He teaches a class you can download/watch for free (I think it’s Math 108). </p>
<p>Somewhere in the first or second lecture he says, “If you can’t finish the first problem set, this class will probably be too hard for you.”</p>
<p>If anyone has doubts about the rigor of HUES (I’m looking at you, Siserune), give this a try. I’ll be here for your apology.</p>
<p>Yes. In fact, you can take out private loans before you get accepted.</p>
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<p>Wait, so now you’re comparing the choice of not revealing full information about yourself to the crime of shoplifting? Surely you jest.</p>
<p>Again, I don’t see what’s so “wrong” or “low” or “dishonest” about anything that is being proposed here on this thread. After all, everybody has the right to privacy. If I choose not to reveal particular details of my background to my employer, shouldn’t I have the right to do that? And if that employer then misinterprets my reticence, hey, that’s not my fault. Blame the employer for not performing their due diligence. </p>
<p>Now do I consider this to be a ‘race to the bottom’, for the fact is, frankly, we’re not racing towards anywhere. We’re already at the bottom. Like I said, businessmen routinely omit crucial information to each other, and we just call that ‘savvy business’. Bill Gates chose to omit the source of his operating system to IBM, Mark Zuckerburg chose to omit to the Winklevoss twins what he was really doing with his time, and now they’re feted as billionaires and the subject of Academy-Award winning movies. Given that, I don’t see what’s so remarkable about choosing to omit certain details of your background to a potential employer. The act of hiring is a business transaction, nothing more.</p>
<p>“What did you mean by it is “no University of Phoenix”? University of Phoenix is a very respected academic institution from which I am proud to have graduated. The ball keeps on rolling and one day University of Phoenix might become the new Harvard. Please do not underestimate that which you apparently have so little knowledge about.”</p>
<p>I lol’d</p>
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<p>No jesting at all. I use the shoplifting example in this instance as an example unethical behavior done in response to unethical behavior done by the store.</p>
<p>My point started back in post #185 when you said:</p>
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<p>That is the exactly the revenge or reciprocity as justification for dishonest behavior that is wrong. I’m not talking not just keeping back a few private, innconsequential details about yourself. I’m talking about employing outright dishonesty and justifying it by saying that the employer is also being dishonest.</p>
<p>What I’m saying is that having been lied to does not make it okay for you to also lie. You’ll both be liars instead of just the employer. Is having two liars somehow better than one?</p>
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<p>More proof that you guys aren’t real Harvard students. LOL j/k.</p>