<p>“And here is what I have been waiting to see all along, and outright admission that a black man is responsible for his arrest even though he behaves legally, and even though arrests should ONLY be applied to behaviors that are illegal.”</p>
<p>Rubbish!</p>
<p>What you see is an admission that a MAN engaged in behavior that put him at risk for arrest, and as a result, he was arrested. The “black man” is YOUR racism showing, and you really ought to own that. Just because you’re a racist does not mean that I am.</p>
<p>And here we see how Real Americans are willing to compromise their integrity, despite the clear reading of their posts. The post was not just an admission that a man engaged in behavior. It was an actual assignment of blame for the man’s arrest, despite that the man’s behavior was unworthy of arrest under the law of the land.</p>
<p>Arrests, in honorable nations, should only take place in cases of illegal behavior. But in execrable Real America, they take place because of behavior that Real Americans just don’t like, behavior such as a black man’s asking if his race is the cause of his mistreatment.</p>
<p>“Arrests, in honorable nations, should only take place in cases of illegal behavior.”</p>
<p>Grow up. Fact is, all sorts of unfair and illegal things happen both in America and everywhere else. I’d wager, though, that you’d much rather be in America than in many other places if something like this happened to you. Quit whining and accusing and be thankful that this great country has afforded your children such incredible opportunity. It’ll do you a world of good.</p>
<p>So then we see, yet again, how much of an utter sham the Constitution is in Real America. Real Americans will actually look at an obvious destruction of their Constitution in the case of Gates, but rather than be incensed about it, they consider it a result of immaturity to reject it.</p>
<p>Indeed, because one can get an education due to the work of true Americans who live in Real America, Real Americans actually excuse away “all sorts of unfair and illegal things” that take place in Real America, in this case with Real American cops. Such is the dishonor of Real Americans.</p>
<p>The Real America I live in is populated by lots of people of all skin colors, ethnicities and belief systems. Real Americans have the right to be ignorant, as we have seen from this discussion. Racists appear to come in all colors, don’t they? </p>
<p>Dross, I have read your posts on and off for about a year. Until lately, I more often than not, agreed with you. You have always struck me as a intellectual man, who was bound by reason. Until lately.</p>
<p>You are like a record struck in a groove. You can’t let this one go. It feels like you have lost that logic that used to permeate your posts. The posts on this thread alone are redundant. Keep repeating it enough, and it still doesn’t make us change our minds. You keep telling people they are racists. There may be some here on CC, but if they are, they are the minority of the population here. </p>
<p>I appreciate that you have a POV. But so do other people. They aren’t all wrong, and you aren’t always right. </p>
<p>You might want to agree to disagree. Real Americans don’t mind disagreeing. Really.</p>
<p>There should be “NO RISK” of arrest inherent in any “ENTIRELY LEGAL” action— indeed behavior that has been EXPLICITLY protected by our Constitution. This should be true in America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, whether you’re white, black, brown or yellow. And when we blame the person whose rights have been violated as having “placed himself at risk for arrest”, when we vilify him because we have been offended by what we believe to have been the content of his PROTECTED SPEECH, and yet laud the agent of government that denied the man his right, we in essence, forfeit our own right to free speech—all for the cheap and tawdry thrill of feeling the man “got what he deserved”.</p>
<p>Now I acknowledge, purpleflurp, that you have repeatedly said that you don’t believe Gates should have been arrested. But, I reject in total the idea that he in anyway “brought it on himself”, that he bears any blame whatsoever for having been arrested. It may be said that he bears the blame for having been rude and having jumped to conclusions about the motives of the responding officer, but saying rude things in one’s own home, even to law enforcement, doesn’t even come close to the legal standard required for an arrest on the grounds of disorderly conduct. Not Even Close.</p>
<p>So why have we countlessly witness such feckless esteem for the Sanctity of our most defining document in this case? Why haven’t the majority of red-blooded patriots (especially those among the right arm of our most flag-waving political party) stood up and said, “while we mightily disagree with the words and sentiments of Henry Louis Gates, we will, in the tradition of our beloved founders, defend to the death his right to say them.”? Yes, I too am still waiting for “real Americans” to explain to me why the speech of the man whose rights were violated is seen to be more egregious than the violation of his right to say them.</p>
<p>Too bad you keep getting a key point wrong. Gates was not arrested for yelling in the house. He was for yelling at the cops outside in public. That is a BIG distinction. And switched the law to support the cops over Gates. If Gates had remained in the house and not followed the cops outside they would never had cause to arrest him, legally.</p>
<p>I agree with poetsheart(paraphrasing here) in part, that he didn’t <em>ask for it</em>. I don’t think Gates held out his arms together and said “Cuff me please”. That phrase(asked for it) was used for years if a girl or young woman wore a skirt that a lowlife thought too short and she got raped. Or, if someone was wearing flashy, expensive looking clothes or jewelry in a poor neighborhood then gets robbed. No, no one deserves to get raped or robbed. Pedestrians have the right-ofway- yet cars don’t always stop. No one deserves to be arrested without real expectation of guilt. But an adult- particularly a highly educated adult, and one who bears the burden of discriminations during his life and even before he was born according to some, has to be aware that certain words or appearances can be out of place in certain situations, and that such inappropriate dress or behavior can increase the liklihood of serious consequences. I wouldn’t cross a street blindfolded just because I know by law cars have to stop for me.
I think most here agree Gates acted like an [donkey] No one has argued his behavior was perfectly polite throughout. Did it warrant arrest while in his house? I doubt it. If he chose to continue it outside his house, well, then maybe. Some here have argued his behavior was based on generations of past abuse by whites on blacks. Some will even excuse his behavior for that reason. Were his actions inappropriate? I think so. Were the cops’ responses to his actions inappropriate? I think so. But if we believe Gates is conditioned to expect white abuse from previous generations’ experience, then shouldn’t we believe Gates’ reaction should have been more courteous to avoid causing a situation to flare up? I don’t mean <em>beggin massa not to be whupped</em> I just mean ordinary courtesy to comply with showing i.d. promptly. That’s what I did when a cop questioned me about using a coathanger to unlock a car door yrs ago. Keys in ignition, I was in too big of a hurry.</p>
<p>I’d add too that since Gates is such an educated man, and has such access to amazing legal opinions, if he feels our Constitution has been trampled upon he certainly has the option for a civil suit. Moreover, I think if he feels this was such a trampling, that he has a DUTY to sue, to bring this to light and hopefully help raise awareness, and prevent this from happening again. If, of course he thinks this was just 2 guys that overreacted, and it not a Constitutional issue, well, then he should be content to let this go away.</p>
<p>I also wonder what is meant by “real America”? Does this mean indiginous people here before Columbus? Or people born here for generations? Or, Americans who are not naturalized citizens, such as a German-American? Or does it mean those who consider themselves American first, rather than a German-American, to use the same example? Or is it an expression meaning racist white Americans?</p>
<p>And the courts have (as Calmom pointed out early in this thread) struck down many of these laws as overly broad in their interpretation of what constitutes Disorderly Conduct". The Constitution becomes of none effect whatsoever when simply yelling on one’s own front porch constitutes “Public Disorderly Conduct”. The burden of proof for disorderly conduct involves the feasible potential to “incite riot”. By the time Henry Louis Gates stepped outside his front door, there was already a veritable phalanx of law enforcement standing on his front lawn, with their numerous squad cars parked out on the street. Of course, there was a handful of neighbors gathered to witness the hubbub. If a section of street around your home was suddenly full of cops and squad cars, you would likely become a curious onlooker, too. You might even be “disturbed”. But, it’s disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that the “peace” wasn’t disturbed until Henry Louis Gates appeared on his front porch. Certainly, there was no potential that he would inspire his neighbors to “riot” when most of them were just trying to understand what was going on, and were greatly outnumbered by law enforcement.</p>
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<p>Which was apparently the flimsy excuse Officer Crowley was seeking all along in order to do to Prof. Gates what he’d been wanting to do almost from the start—arrest him on equally flimsy charges of “Disorderly Conduct”. The moment Gates stepped through his front door, Crowley said, “Thank you for stepping outside as I requested” (or something similar), and then proceeded to declare him under arrest. It’s not outside of the realm of logic to say that Crowley was was angry about Gate’s charge of racism, and felt justified in flexing his muscle in an effort to silence him. But that rationalization doesn’t constitute lawful action on the part of law enforcement.</p>
<p>Not only do Real Americans have the right to be ignorant, Littlegreenmom, ignorance is the greatest requirement for citizenship.</p>
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<p>It is really an unimportant question. The appropriate question concerns the group whose numbers give it the power to grant its racism the greatest impact on the country. A Frimeistaric-American may think himself superior to all Americans. But since he is the only one of his kind here, his opinion is virtually meaningless. On the other hand, Real Americans are the majority. Even if they be hicks in the sticks that simple fact gives them immense power even over True Americans.</p>
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<p>You might simply stop reading my posts, then, LGM. That is always an option for you. Or, you might re-read the posts with which you agree, and reflect on what apparently are to you my better days. Or, you might read my current posts and simply disagree with them. Lastly, you may continue to whine about me as you now do, which behavior means very little to me, since it offers me no logically compelling reason to change whatever it is that irks you. The mere fact that you once agreed with me and now do not certainly means very little.</p>
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<p>It seems this way to you because you are focusing on my posts only (since you disagree with them), which are simply evaluations of the posts of others. There is no repetition in them at all, unless the repetition exists in the post related to my posts. In truth, there is a most stunning degree of logic in my posts. They are in fact getting right at the mechanism Real Americans use to justify the reprehensible behavior of ignoring a man’s Constitutional rights.</p>
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<p>Well of course not! My goodness. In this exercise here I have actually placed the meat and potatoes that drive the Constitution right in front of the Real Americans, and I have watched them repeatedly turn from it to the disgusting swill of ignorance. I have even predicted the behavior, only to watch it then become reality. I hardly expect your minds to change. I now have a record of how a group of people who are ideologically opposed to a black man, will abandon the very thing they claim is most important to their country, simply to avoid admitting that the black man has a right to say what he wishes without fear of arrest. The entire point was to reveal this, not to perform the impossible and change your minds. Real Americans are already committed to being Real Americans, and discussion exists for them for one reason only, to find like-minded people who will revel with them in being Real Americans.</p>
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<p>Well okay. Thank you for your opinion.</p>
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<p>Indeed they don’t. The problem with them is that if in disagreeing with them one of them should be a cop, there is no law and no reason that would give one the right to disagree without fear of being handcuffed and sent to jail. Such is the dishonor that is everywhere-present when Real Americans are a majority.</p>
<p>LOL. Well, you see, Real Americans absolutely MUST claim that little HL Gates, standing on his porch with his cane, and asking if his race was the cause of the cop ignoring his request for ID, presented an obvious display of disorderly conduct. Of course they know Gates was simply using his rights to protest to authority, but Real Americans just cannot stand it when a black guy takes advantage of these rights. They literally cannot admit that Gates was fully within his rights to do as he did, even though their own Constitution grants them this right. These people will do anything to blame Gates, though he acted completely within the law – unlike their hero.</p>
<p>They are claiming that Gates acted “reprehensibly” and “stupidly” and that he should have known better and all sorts of other things that have no corroboration. How do they know Gates did all of this? They do not know it in the least. They are agreeing with the cops, the same people who lied in their report. That’s Real America.</p>
<p>There should be “NO RISK” of arrest inherent in any “ENTIRELY LEGAL” action— indeed behavior that has been EXPLICITLY protected by our Constitution. This should be true in America, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, whether you’re white, black, brown or yellow. And when we blame the person whose rights have been violated as having “placed himself at risk for arrest”, when we vilify him because we have been offended by what we believe to have been the content of his PROTECTED SPEECH, and yet laud the agent of government that denied the man his right, we in essence, forfeit our own right to free speech—all for the cheap and tawdry thrill of feeling the man “got what he deserved”.</p>
<p>Now, it just does not get any clearer than this, and there is not a true American on God’s Green Earth who will or even can disagree with it.</p>
<p>But every single Real American will disagree, and every single time.</p>
<p>I tell you the truth: the reason Real Americans cannot understand this is because it forces them to defend someone they utterly hate. To the degree they resist what is obviously good, and right, and true, that is the degree with which they hate HL Gates, a man who has done nothing to them, and whose only crime is that he is black and willing to use his rights.</p>
<p>I think both sides acted poorly and justice ultimately prevailed which is all the Constitution really guarantees as our concepts of what is allowed behavior change over time. The Constitution never said you will not be arrested for something you are not guilty of doing. That’s why we have trials. Plenty of people of all colors have been arrested for something they later were not found guilty of.(How about OJ??–he beat a dead solid case) How’s that fit your little scenario?</p>
<p>what is “here we go again” supposed to mean? I agreed with poetsheart on the point that "There should be “NO RISK” of arrest inherent in any “ENTIRELY LEGAL” action— indeed behavior that has been EXPLICITLY protected by our Constitution. " But added that things don’t always run as they should in a perfect world; and gave examples of how <em>he/she was ‘asking for it’</em> has been misused in the past.
Do you mean Dross, that you disagree with me? He really was asking for it?</p>
<p>Well of course. In Real America cops can simply arrest citizens, interrupting their lives and harrassing them, as long as some nonsense called “justice” prevails sometime after the arrest. Never mind the fact that the Constitution prohibits unreasonable search and seizure. Oh, but I can hear the little microscopic wheels spinning in the minds of Real Americans now. They are thinking that an arrest is not a seizure, and that Gates is therefore not protected from arrest by the Fourth Amendment. That they seach so hard for a way out of acknowledging a ma’s rights speaks volume about their quality. Denying Gates rights here actually makes Real Americans happy, so corrupt are they when it comes to love of freedom.</p>
<p>Well, logic demands we understand that an arrest is a seizure, though seizures are not necessarily arrests. The Supreme Court in Henry Vs. The United States 361 U.S. 98 (1959), and in Terry vs. Ohio 392 U.S.1 (1968) state with the clearest language that when a cop cuffs a guy so he can’t walk away, the cop has seized the guy and that it is relevant to the Fourth Amendment. In Brown Vs. Texas 443 U.S.47 (1979) we find that Mr. Brown was walking in a “high drug area” when the cops stopped him. They asked him for ID and to explain where he had come from and where he was going. The guy, quite within his rights, refused. So the cops arrested him. The Supreme Court unanimously agreed that the man had been unconstitutionally seized according to the Fourth Amendment. Whereas in godless Real America the Constitution is such a sham that cops can harass innocent people, interrupting their lives, even cuffing them and taking them to jail simply for protesting, in True America there is this thing called a True Constitution. It is highly valued and powerful enough to deny cops the authority to seize people who are no threat to anyone. Unfortunately, True America is just my dream. Reality is cursed with Real America.</p>
<p><a href=“How%20about%20OJ??–he%20beat%20a%20dead%20solid%20case”>quote</a> How’s that fit your little scenario?
<p>Yeah right. I heard a very famous defense attorney last night say when you have nothing you attack the cops. </p>
<p>If he was falsely arrested the courts have a remedy for that–damages. Mr Gates is free to pursue that. The law does not assume perfection on the part of cops. But if Gates can prove, in court, there was malice or lying on the part of the cops they will be the ones doing time. That’s the way it works.
Your cases have nothing to do with the case at hand.</p>
<p>Which in Real America means that whenever you attack the cops, you have nothing, which view always excuses the cops. Such is the utter sham that is Real America. </p>
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<p>Of course, and in doing so here in Real America, he will only damage himself, and his friends, not the least of which is the President. Already the man is being deluged with racist attacks and emails from godless Real Americans. I am sure the very last thing he wishes to do is harm himself and the President even further, such is “justice” in Real America.</p>
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<p>Oh, but Real Americans do assume perfection. They are so hot to accept the view of the cop that a little man on a cane was such a detriment to society, that he should be sent to jail. They do not deserve the benefit of having their rights defended in court. They have already given them away. Gates would do well to simply let the matter stand unresolved, so that the cops can continue their abuse, even one day to Real Americans.</p>
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<p>Hardly! In Real America, challenging a cop is virtually impossible. Gates doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance because the Constitution here is an utterly worthless sham.</p>
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<p>Of course not. The cases only apply to a Constitution that has value, not to the sham that governs Real America.</p>
<p>And in the case of O.J., the arrest was for “probable cause” because a real, honest to goodness crime had been committed, namely the murder of two innocent people. If you want to equate Henry Gate’s transgression to murder, barrons, I don’t think we have a basis for much discussion, here.</p>
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<p>No, what The Constitution says is that an individual or group of citizens is not to be arrested—in other words, “seized”, for engaging in acts which it calls inalienable rights, and which it explicitly protects.</p>
<p>Oh, but OF COURSE Gates’s transgression is tantamount to murder. The guy was, after all, standing there on his porch, hobbling on his cane, and asking if he was being treated like he was because he is black. That is basically like murder right there. I mean, if he hadn’t been stopped, who knows how many people would have rioted and started shooting cops? So, Gates was arrested. LOL.</p>
<p>That is how it goes here in the Cursed Land. Gates endured withering racism from Real Americans who accused him of being wrong, though he was merely using his rights. To seek “justice” he must endure even more racism, which no white person would ever have to endure. And we know this is true, even Real Americans know it is true. That is how it works here in the Cursed Land.</p>