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<p>Wow. Stupidity is not illegal, not prosecutable. It may be accompanied by something prosecutable & illegal, or lead to it, but in itself it is not a crime.</p>
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<p>Yes, QuantMech, I listened to the 911 call of Ms. Whalen. She indicates the race of one of the men as possibly hispanic. Crowley’s wrote says he spoke with Whalen and she mention two black males. I think the conclusion from this is that Crowley’s statement in his report is wrong. I doubt Whalen told him about two black males. The question is “So What?” What does it tell us about Crowley that his report is not perfectly written in every fact. When people write reports, they often mix and forget information. It does not appear significant to me. Also, Whalen was not the one who first observed the two men. An elderly lady observed them and then asked Whalen to call the police. Possibly Crowley confused the elderly lady and Whalen’s comments.</p>
<p>I agree, epiphany.</p>
<p>Is there any evidence that Officer Crowley ever talked to the elderly lady who asked Ms. Whalen to call 911? The timeline of the response to the 911 call would not seem to permit that. </p>
<p>To me, the error of fact in Officer Crowley’s report says something more than that “his report is not perfectly written in every fact.” Either the statement about “two black men” was simply made up; or at some point, Officer Crowley came to believe that he had been told that “two black men” were breaking in. The latter is the more charitable assumption; but in that case, it seems to me that there was some subliminal slant in thinking or recalling. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t know whether the doctrine of “falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus” holds in American courts.</p>
<p>spidey, your position seems ambiguous to me. You say you agree with me, but respectfully, you talk about “most people” here believing that he deserved to be arrested or at least harrassed (for “stupidity”), without being clear (i.m.o.) about where you stand, except that you appreciate the difficult task police officers have. </p>
<p>I guess I feel different from a philosophical point of view. I feel that those who serve the public must have the mettle to apply the law & procedures fairly. Yes, it’s tough: so if your temperament makes patience & non-reactionary behavior difficult, it would seem that this is not a good profession for someone so inclined. If someone finds themselves driven crazy by teenagers, it would not be a good idea to become a high school teacher.</p>
<p>I expect the occasional mistake & occasional bad behavior. Then after that, I expect a self-correction and if warranted, a supervisory correction. I don’t expect a reinforcement of breaches in good behavior.</p>
<p>I agree with this, epiphany:
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<p>I don’t think too many people feel Gates DESERVED to be arrested or harassed. I certainly do not. Yet while Gates did not deserve to be arrested, he should have expected a cop to act the way cops act when challenged. </p>
<p>I am not an expert on the law when it comes to what cops are allowed to do. I do think it is common sense to expect more trouble if we push back in an interaction with them. </p>
<p>Expecting a cop to act the way cops act when challenged is not the same as thinking it is alright for them to act that way. It is possible to be very empathetic toward cops, yet still think it isn’t OK for them to hassle us just because we challenge them verbally. </p>
<p>There is something very unAmerican about having to worry that a cop will give us a hard time if we argue with him. On the other hand, if we look honestly at the conditions under which cops have to work every day, it should not surprise us. </p>
<p>Whether or not I think I should have to be, I won’t any time in the near future be anything but deferential toward a cop. </p>
<p>Does my point still seem ambiguous? I guess I don’t think this is a black and white matter. No pun intended.</p>
<p>^ yes, that’s clearer.</p>
<p>And here’s my slightly different opinion:
While it may be <em>prudent</em> not to “be anything but deferential” to all police officers, the same could be said for brutal police officers in foreign countries, and for medieval monarchs & their enforcing ministers. One did so for one’s survival. But we don’t live in those kinds of systems, and shouldn’t have to feel that something untoward will happen to us because the other guy has a gun and we don’t. (Unless we’re physically or verbally truly threatening that weapon-carrying person.) </p>
<p>Referring to one of the incidents I mentioned, I was a few years ago pulled over by an officer due to something confusing that was happening in the road. You would have thought that I had sped away, that I wielded a weapon, that I had uttered profanity at the officer. I did no such thing. I merely asked him, while stopped, why he was pulling me over. HE CALLED FOR BACK-UP! (What a jerk!) And mind you I’m 5’2". Ironically in this case, it was a black officer, so being a jerk knows no color, obviously. The guy was either inexperienced, had an ego problem, or had had a bad day personally or professionally. No matter, his entire manner was an unnecessary effort to humiliate and detain me for no other reason than to assert power. He continued to insult me while waiting for his blessed “back-up” (!), with gratuitous statements about how supposedly “dangerous” I was, which was laughable, since I was parked with the motor off and weaponless.</p>
<p>Would it have been “prudent” of me to have discussed with him his contemptuous attitude? No. (And I didn’t.) But had I not right after that experienced a personal crisis in my life that consumed my time, I would have filed a formal complaint, so that the next time he would be treating a similar innocent citizen with the respect due him or her. Many police departments have civilian review boards associated with them, that are apart from the Internal Affairs Division. This is the kind of complaint that gets filed (overreaction, unnecessary humiliating remarks, etc.)</p>
<p>So I guess in conclusion I would say that more importantly than my opinion ( 
), it is the opinion of civilian review boards in general that police officers should behave professionally despite what kind of a day they’re having, and that when they don’t, complaints will become a part of their record and figure into their future opportunities for promotion and leadership. It’s important not to let people with power abuse their power.</p>
<p>I don’t believe in filing frivolous complaints in any venue, and I do believe that tolerance goes a long way to making our lives more pleasant and toward relationships, including official ones, running more efficiently. But the fact that there are civilian grievance procedures is in itself an acknowledgement that we should expect certain behaviors out of police officers and expect not to see other behaviors. (JMO)</p>
<p>I agree with your last post. </p>
<p>I was in a similar situation not so long ago (I was not wearing my spidey outfit, so to the cop I looked just like any other mild mannered suburban housewife). </p>
<p>I had a car full of teenagers, it was after midnight on a Friday, and I was driving my husband’s car (which I am not really used to). After a long activity, I was taking the hungry kids out for a fast food drive-thru run, and was driving more slowly than normal as I tried to figure out which exit might have one which was open. The car I was driving also has very dark windows. No one was on the road, I was in the right lane, and probably doing 50 (on a highway, but not a major one). </p>
<p>All of a sudden I see a patrol car right on my back bumper. No lights - just following me. Followed me like that for MILES. Really, really unnerving. I exited where I saw a food sign, and the cop followed me. At some point the lights went on at last, and the cop said I had changed lanes in some way that that was not right (I was so intimidated by the close tail gaiting for so long that she was probably right). Then she asked me why I was driving so slowly, and asked if I had been drinking. The thing that REALLY blew my mind was that she then waved her hand in front of her nose and said, “I can really smell the alcohol”. I had ZERO alcohol to drink. ZERO. I do not EVER drive with even a drop of alcohol in my system (personal policy). </p>
<p>Does Diet Coke smell like alcohol, or was she just lying to see what I would say, so that she would have a reason to ask me to step out of the car and do a field sobriety test? Of course she was lying. What blew my mind is that she said this in front of my kid, and all the other kids I was driving. UNBELIEVABLE. What an a$$. She could easily have gotten her job done, keeping the roads safe, without embarrassing an innocent person like that (and possibly damaging my reputation unfairly). She finally let me go without a ticket (I was extremely polite, which took every bit of restraint I could muster).</p>
<p>I SO wanted to go first thing the next morning and file a complaint, but my husband talked me out of it. His point, with which I agreed, was that we really didn’t need to create an enemy in the local police house. In summary, while I agree that we should be able to file complaints when cops treat us improperly, how many people are actually going to do that? I bailed on it, anyway.</p>
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<p>When the police do this it is often because they are calling your plates to the dispatcher to have the police department report on whether the vehicle is stolen and identify the owner. Also, they are waiting to see if you cross the center line on the road which will enable them to have reason to stop you. It is unnerving if you are a regular driver, but if you are a drunk driver it is soon the end of the line. Many drunks drive very slowly and cross the center line at some point. </p>
<p>There is no excuse for the police officer to lie to you about alcohol.</p>
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<p>:eek: Do mean to tell me that cops will sometimes lie?! Say it ain’t so. Certainly, that paragon of virtue, Officer Crowley, could not have lied in his official police report on the Gates incident. :eek:</p>
<p>^Your faces are funny.</p>
<p>I get that you were using sarcasm, but does anyone here think that cops NEVER lie? I doubt it. Also, when I listed the many ways that cops are there for us, it does not mean that I think they are never wrong. It is important to look at all sides of a situation.</p>
<p>So spidey, in your real-life example, you didn’t know why the cop started following you, you didn’t know why the lights eventually came on, you didn’t know why the cop came up to your car. The cop then gave her reason for stopping you, and you were skeptical. Further, you say the cop made what you consider inappropriate <em>observations</em> which insulted you, to the point that you think she was an a$$.
Your response was to remain calm and polite though you were insulted? Is that correct?
Afterward you considered filing a complaint. You decided not to, though you had that option. Gosh, it sounds to me like you handled an unnerving situation very well. I’m not certain I agree with choosing not to file a complaint, but you were there and I wasn’t. I certainly agree with your right to choose yes or no to file afterward.</p>
<p>I won’t burden this thread with an unrelated story, but if anybody wants to hear a funny cop story with me and state police pm me. I was smart alec. Not loud, not threatening, or making racial remarks, just a basic smart alec.</p>
<p>For another perspective on traffic stops, there was just an article that popped up in yahoo today.</p>
<p>[The</a> hidden benefits of traffic tickets. - By Tom Vanderbilt - Slate Magazine](<a href=“http://www.slate.com/id/2226509/]The”>The hidden benefits of traffic tickets.)</p>
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<p>I’m sure that’s true, lgm, statistically, but spideygirl and I were talking about situations where any degree of danger had been determined or was evident. </p>
<p>My point was that cops often do behave unprofessionally, and I personally feel (as do many other citizens) that they should be held accountable for that. Police overreaction is not o.k. in my book, whether it’s Gates or anybody else. Some posters here do believe that there’s much more rationalization of overreaction when the victim is black, than when not. I can’t say I disagree with that.</p>
<p>You could also argue that when it happens to an African American citizen, there will be concerns that racism was involved, whereas when it happens to a Caucasian citizen, well, that is just a cop being a cop. </p>
<p>By this point I am not in any way discounting the very real issue that much needs to be changed when it comes to law enforcement, the justice system, and the African American community. You just cannot assume that there was racism in a particular incident just because the cop didn’t seem to have a reasonable explanation for his (or her) behavior. </p>
<p>Some posters have said in effect that “Well, it HAS to be racism. What else can it be?” A few have then added, “Well, anyone who does see clearly that this is racism must be a member of the very unAmerican majority”. Can’t there be another scenario? Can’t we assume that unless we have real evidence, people are not racist? </p>
<p>At the same time, can’t we expend our energy looking for real solutions to the unfair things that still go on in our society? Rather than imagining who is racist and who isn’t, I would rather segway into a discussion on what is being done nationwide today to improve things. </p>
<p>What can we do to change the fact that if you are African American and get caught with drugs, you are more likely to serve time than go to rehab (and this is a huge reason why so much of the population in prisons is African American)? </p>
<p>What can be done, or is being done, to train officers in communities nationwide to be sensitive to the perceptions inherent in communities in which they serve. Are there some cities or towns which have made noteworthy progress on this front? </p>
<p>Are some towns or cities better at improving transparency in their police departments than others? Better at weeding out bad cops, and more eager to receive feedback from the community that they serve?</p>
<p>Are there objective ways to measure progress on fairness in law enforcement and the justice system? Does anyone know of any interesting recent studies on these matters?</p>
<p>Good, and well-balanced post, spideygirl, – particularly with your implied reference to the previously unaddressed issue of self-consciousness/anxiety about the possibility of being accused of racism, and how in some cases that may actually result in <em>greater</em> care with minority races (from a white cop) than vice-versa. You didn’t specifically say this, but certainly I have seen that operate in my region and in other racially sensitive regions.</p>
<p>Excellent posts spideygirl (1966 and 1976).</p>
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No. Not me, anyway. I think everyone is racist, myself included. It’s just human nature to allow previous experiences and teachings to color your reaction to a current situation that is new to you. When I meet a person I haven’t known before, I’m going to subconsciously assume certain things about them from lots of superficial clues - the way the stand, talk, look me in the eyes (or not), comments they make (in jest and otherwise), etc. And one immediately obvious fact about a person is their race. I don’t think that there is any way a person living in our society can be expected to be race-neutral in their immediate, subconscious reactions to others, plain and simple. We’re not blank slates; we bring our history with us. Pretending otherwise is just naive, in my opinion.</p>
<p>To me, the answer isn’t to “eliminate racism” - which I think is impossible - but the same as I felt was the correct preventative to things like the Duke Lacrosse rape prosecution - more professionalism. If police officers are trained, and expected, to behave in a professional manner at all times then they will be past that initial subconscious reaction phase, and objectively assessing the situation with the person in front of them before things head south. Simple as that. The cop doesn’t have to be your friend - he just has to behave in a professional manner. </p>
<p>I understand that Spideygirl is using the term “racist” to refer to overt, Archie Bunker-esque racism. But that’s not really the problem. Overt racism has become socially taboo in America - to our credit. But now we have the reverse situation, where people who have reacted to a person of another race in a manner which is under scrutiny wrapping themselves in the mantle of victimhood - “You called me a racist! Boo hoo!” In my opinion, Officer Crowley is clearly no Archie Bunker. But is he race-neutral in all his dealings with the public? In this case, I don’t think so. His actions, and his police report, strongly suggest otherwise.</p>
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<p>We do bring our history with us. It is equally naive, however, to assume that we can judge what other people have experienced or how they have absorbed or interpreted their histories by the color of their skin.</p>
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With all due respect, I think this is also naive, and very cynical. Of course it is possible! Way, way more than this is possible as well.</p>
<p>I liked reading your last post, but I think you should question your assumptions. Also, I wasn’t referring only to Archie Bunker-type racism. Give me a little more credit than that.</p>