<p>I agree, lookingforward. Admissions committees want a clear picture of who they’re admitting. My point was just that an applicant who declares himself undecided but presents a profile heavy on STEM courses and EC’s will be presumed to be a STEM kid. One who presents the same profile but declares himself a poetry of classics major will have a hard time convincing the committee of his serious interest.</p>
<p>“Harvard and UNC are parties because that data stinks.”</p>
<p>My opinion is they went after these two particular schools at least in part because they are in two different federal court districts. And one private school, one public. Chances of a split decision are up there…more likely to climb toward SCOTUS. And what some specialists are positing is, that’s where Blum wants this.</p>
<p>Thanks, Sue. There are kids with broad interests, who really are undecided, but they also have broad and deep strengths, academic and in activities/experiences, to show. You can see them fitting in different directions. They’re not usually unilateral. </p>
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<p>I have advised quite a few Asian kids over the years for college apps (for free, as community service to family friends). A lot of people here have been throwing out things that don’t balance what I see. Perhaps someone with intimate familiarity with the situation that Asian families face and/or who has been or is an H adcom can comment? I am doing the best I can with limited info.</p>
<p>lookingforward You may be correct, but if Blum wanted to get a private school that was more amenable to getting its butt whipped on discrimination charges, it would have selected a school like Washington and Lee. It has none of the protections that Harvard has such as a diversified student body or a large Asian student population. A school that is over 85% White would have been a better target than Harvard.</p>
<p>I agree with @lookingforward. Stanford and Yale could easily been named along with Harvard in this lawsuit…especially Stanford which has so many disappointed Asian applicants/parents each year…</p>
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<p>Yes and no. I agree with LF’s analysis that coursework and ECs matter and know for a fact that my kid could have in fact supported an app for social sciences. However, getting into a good school was more of a requirement than getting into a specific school which meant the intent of an intended concentration was predeclared every where.</p>
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<p>I live in a state where he has gotten his 15 minutes of fame already.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20140720-abigail-fisher-drop-your-admissions-lawsuit-against-ut.ece”>http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20140720-abigail-fisher-drop-your-admissions-lawsuit-against-ut.ece</a></p>
<p>Ha, W&L isn’t, ya know, Harvard. I know you post much about W&L, but H is going to attract much, much more attention across the country. And it’s really going to be much more interesting with H, which will put up a great fight. </p>
<p>Kenzaburo, a number of us here have advised kids. Some have deeper experience. </p>
<p>" an applicant who declares himself undecided but presents a profile heavy on STEM courses and EC’s will be presumed to be a STEM kid. "</p>
<p>Worse than that, IMO, a STEM kid who doesn’t have the gumption/courage/sense of self-worth to compete as a STEM kid, and thinks somehow he /she’s getting away with something.</p>
<p>I’d consider it a strike against.</p>
<p>Good thing I’m not an admissions person.</p>
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<p>I agree. I likely have far deeper experience in advising Asian kids than anyone here. </p>
<p>Xiggi feels he has counseled far more! 
At least he gets credit for one “Asian” parent.</p>
<p>So, has Espenshade, or anyone else, compared the SAT scores of Asian applicants intending to major in STEM with the SAT scores of white applicants intending to major in STEM? </p>
<p>I recall seeing that the engineers at some schools we looked at had much higher test scores than students in other majors. I didn’t see any information specific to math or science majors, but I think it’s reasonable to expect that math/physics/chemistry majors would have scores comparable to the engineers. They do have to complete some comparable coursework. </p>
<p>So is it that the Asians “need” higher SAT scores? Or could it be that successful STEM applicants achieve higher test scores and that Asians are over-represented among STEM applicants?</p>
<p>These tests are measuring a specific set of academic skills. They are not measuring all skills pertinent to academic success in college. Kids whose talents and interests include math are going to do better in the math section. Kids with other interests are not necessarily going to be favored by these tests. On average, I expect they would score lower. Does Harvard care if their budding musicologist or art historian got a lower math score and a lower composite than their aspiring physicists? I would hope not. This suit seems to imply that they should care. </p>
<p>Looking at these subgroups is not irrelevant. You can’t even understand the issue without doing so.</p>
<p>Having attended and assisted with a wide variety of kid ECs and teams, I saw that in our region the Asian kids are participating at a far higher rate in the STEM activities. The difference was also evident when we sat in on STEM vs. non-STEM classes during college visits. </p>
<p>Regarding the legacy admissions, I didn’t find where Espenshade’s asked the question, do legacies have an admissions preference specifically at their parent’s alma mater? Instead he asked, are legacies more likely to be admitted to any of the schools examined? Did I miss something? I don’t see how this bears on the complaint that was made.</p>
<p>@kenzaburo "What would you expect is a kid came to you and said that she wants to major in philosophy and Sanskrit? (Which, by the way, I may encourage some of my kids to write in. " So you’re going to advise kids to lie? Wow.</p>
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<p>Somebody has been paying to the blog of that very interesting young person who happens to be Amy Chua’s daughter. Or reading that “other” thread. </p>
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<p>It was an inside joke, as people on the other Parent Forum were extolling the virtues of Amy Chua’s kid simply because she choose Philosophy and Sanskrit as dual major. To me all majors are identical, and it is somewhat strange to praise someone just because of his/her major. </p>
<p>Let me wrap my head around the notion they’re all identical. And I’ve read more apps than you. This is getting ridiculous.</p>
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<p>You don’t know that. Please, argumentum ab auctoritate is hard to pull off in the web, and in general leads to falacies and weakens your argument. I will not engage in personal comments.</p>
<p>STEM v non-STEM seems like just another characterization to knock Asian applicants. Being a STEM major is only seen in a negative light if the applicant is Asian but it is seen as a glowing positive for URMs. The two teens that made national headlines for getting into all 8 Ivies…were URMs declaring pre-med/STEM. Here in SoCal, there is a huge push for getting URMs to go the STEM route. </p>
<p>Should applicants be getting conflicting messages based on race?</p>
<p>The argument is essentially, “Who is a worse applicant? An Asian STEM major or an Asian non-STEM major?” The STEM versus non-STEM is more of a distraction. It is the Asian part that makes the applicant somehow less desirable. The question then becomes: what will hurt an Asian application less? Being STEM or non-STEM?</p>
<p>Other distractions include: LORs, ECs and interviews. ECs performed by Asians seem to be devalued but those same ECs performed by URMs are praised. The Duke study showed that Asian applicants had better ECs and yet the myth that Asians must not have had them is still being perpetuated.</p>
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<p>I am not so sure. It is a negative light if you only want to talk about Harvard and nothing else. There are plenty of other schools out there and I know no high achieving Asians sitting around at home because they couldn’t get into college.</p>
<p>And can you link us to where a Duke study compared ECs?</p>
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<p>Are you sure this doesn’t apply to at least a dozen colleges? Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc…</p>
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<p>There are lots of them posted in this thread: <a href=“"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 11 - Applying to College - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1544837-race-in-college-admission-faq-discussion-11-p1.html</a></p>
<p>Here is just one of them: </p>
<p><a href=“http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3982/QE83/pdf”>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3982/QE83/pdf</a></p>
<p>As determined by Duke Admissions Officers, Asians had the best credentials concerning 5 of the 6 components: Achievement, Curriculum, Essay, Recs and Test Scores. They came in a close second to Whites in personal qualities.</p>