<p>And next people will be clamoring for single-sex bathrooms. Imagine that. </p>
<p>Wait…</p>
<p>I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal, or why it’s seen as discriminatory. We have a lot of accommodations for different faiths and preferences in this country, and this accommodation seems quite easy to make, and may be attractive to a lot of female students, not just Muslims.
We have organic foods, vegetarian as well as vegan dishes at college campuses. Some have bathrooms that our non-gendered. We have campus dorms for those who don’t want any alcohol in their living area, and we have all women floors, coed floors, coed dorms and single sex dorms. We make allowances for Jewish and Christian students to observe holidays at many colleges. What is the problem with a few hours of a single-sex gym- one of many such gyms?</p>
<p>“What’s the big deal? There are private female-only fitness clubs (Curves, anyone?). Harvard is a private school and can set its policies the way it wants.”</p>
<p>That’s what I think, too. The degree of inconvenience DOES matter. The kosher station in the dining hall unquestionably takes up space that would otherwise be devoted to non-kosher food. It’s a tiny burden on the general community that allows a minority group to take fuller advantage of university resources. I would feel quite differently if recreational gym use were somehow central to the university experience, the way classes and living spaces are. It’s critical to the mission of the college that everyone has to interact in those spaces and cope with our differences. But if somebody wants to run on the treadmill in shorts for half an hour without men looking at her? Meh, let her.</p>
<p>IMHO, we wouldn’t see this kind of reaction if Islam weren’t involved. Many of Harvard’s peer schools offer single-sex dorms or floors to women who prefer not to live so closely with men. Where’s the outrage about this discriminatory dorm? [Housing</a> - Balch Hall](<a href=“Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University”>Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University)</p>
<p>“IMHO, we wouldn’t see this kind of reaction if Islam weren’t involved.”</p>
<p>I agree. And equating Islam with white supremacy is pretty far out there.</p>
<p>The problem, for those who don’t understand it, is that devout Muslim (and Orthodox Jewish) women cannot wear the skimpy clothing suitable for exercise in an environment where men are also present. To do so violates the principles of their religion.</p>
<p>If men at Harvard feel that they are being denied gym time because of this, why not designate one of the other gyms as male-only during the same hours? This way, both genders would have equal access to the facilities.</p>
<p>Yep, the only way this would be discriminatory is if there is a group of male Harvard students who made a similar request for all male hours and were refused.</p>
<p>“We must show tolerance and respect for all others.” -Student Ola Aljawhary</p>
<p>Unless you are a man.</p>
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<p>Maybe you misread, or are willfully misinterpreting, but I never equated Islam with white supremacy. I merely made a simple point - many people would consider “whites-only” gym hours unacceptable who do not consider these gym hours unacceptable. I do not believe Islam is anything like white supremacy; for starters, I don’t virulently dislike and denounce Islam. The point is, both policies are equally based off of discrimination, and yet some people consider the women -only hours more acceptable,and I think that is an inconsistent position. Again, I pose the question: would people here consider it acceptable to have “whites-only” hours for a few hours each week at one of the campus gyms? After all, it’s only a small inconvenience…</p>
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<p>Untrue. If this were Orthodox Jews wanting “men-only” and “women-only” hours, if this were white supremacists wanting “whites-only” hours, if this were skinny people wanting “non-muscular people only” hours so they didn’t feel bad, if this were obese people wanting “obese people only” hours so they weren’t embarrassed, if this were religious students wanting “no gay students allowed” hours because they didn’t like them - in all of these cases, I would argue as I am now. Because they are based on discrimination, and I think that’s wrong.</p>
<p>But hey, if Harvard wants to make it equal and have a set of “men-only” gym hours every week, then I’m cool with that.</p>
<p>As I said before, if I were asked voluntarily to try and avoid going to the gym during a certain limited set of hours to allow for some female-only time, I probably would. I don’t object to being accommodating on a personal level - indeed, I think it’s admirable. I object to the university freezing students out by forcing accommodation onto them, is all.</p>
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<p>I agree with that, and if that had been Harvard’s response I wouldn’t have had a problem. But it wasn’t.</p>
<p>That Muslim association member who spoke for the article was a piece of work, by the way. He doesn’t feel the policy is discrimination, despite the fact that if a policy is based on gender it is, by definition, discriminatory by sex. And he thinks everyone should show tolerance and respect… I agree, until showing that tolerance and respect to a group requires showing intolerance and disrespect to another, as this does.</p>
<p>“in all of these cases, I would argue as I am now. Because they are based on discrimination, and I think that’s wrong.”</p>
<p>OK, so where’s your outrage about the Cornell dorm I linked to? Are we going to have a thread about that?</p>
<p>I assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that Cornell also provides single-sex dorms for men. If not, I think that’s discriminatory in the same way that I think this is.</p>
<p>And (gasp!) there are colleges that do not admit men!</p>
<p>Nope, at least not for freshmen.</p>
<p>[Housing</a> - First Year Students](<a href=“Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University”>Residential Life | Student & Campus Life | Cornell University)</p>
<p>When will we see the angry thread?</p>
<p>Did I post the angry thread? Nope. Just expressed my opinion that it’s wrong.</p>
<p>I’m not outraged by Harvard’s new policy, I just think it’s wrong. I think lots of things are wrong - that fact does not require me to take action on every single one of them.</p>
<p>Can we stop fixating on how I choose to express my opinion now?</p>
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<p>^^This is straight and to the point. </p>
<p>I grew up in a different time, when women had no high school sports and all dorms were single sex. Heck, HYP were all male, for that matter.</p>
<p>In our attempt to bring equality to both sexes in this country, I think we sometimes forget that while men and women are equal, they are not the same.<br>
Treating women and men equally does not always mean treating them exactly the same. We can treat both sexes equally and still accommodate their differences and unique needs. It’s called respect. These women asked for this accommodation because they are Muslim WOMEN, not because they are Muslim.<br>
If a group of men had a reason to go to the Harvard administration and had a reason or need for a few men-only hours, I do think they would be accommodated. I doubt that you could come up with 6 guys in the entire university who would want to make a case for that accommodation, however. Nothing is stopping them-except the fact that there is no real need.</p>
<p>By the way, that’s another interesting facet of this debate - it’s not like the genesis for women-only hours was an overwhelming, massive popular movement. It was 6 girls. Is that a pretty ridiculously small minority, or is it just me?</p>
<p>Are you sure they weren’t speaking for all the Muslim women at Harvard, including grad students and perhaps faculty? I thought the 6 were just the “movers and shakers,” speaking for all the women in their situation.</p>
<p>Even if they were not officially speaking for them, I’m sure the administration can assume it would benefit all Muslim women, as well as women of other conservative religions(conservative Jews, Christians).</p>
<p>1of42 -</p>
<p>And the Jews were less than 1% of Germany, pretty small minority too.</p>
<p>And no, I do not mean to say that gym access = death, but I do mean that your argument is incredibly flawed.</p>
<p>The muslim view on morality is the reasoning behind this. Morality, just like single sex housing/floors/rooms, just like seperate bathrooms for men and women(how is that not separate but equal?), just like the reason we limit swearing/pornography/alchohol/tobacco/drugs, just like why we most people don’t have classes/work on Saturday and Sunday(Jewish and Christian holy day, coincidence?). It is what this country does.</p>
<p>“Is that a pretty ridiculously small minority, or is it just me?”</p>
<p>Harvard will do everything it can to accommodate a minority of one. There was a female-to-male transgendered individual in the class of 2000 (I had one class with him). He was given a single room in a freshman dorm with one-at-a-time bathrooms. Needless to say, this is a luxury most freshmen do not enjoy. Harvard also fired an alumni interviewer who did not show this student the respect Harvard thought he deserved.</p>
<p>[The</a> Dartmouth Review: Strange Stuff at Harvard](<a href=“http://dartreview.com/archives/1998/01/14/strange_stuff_at_harvard.php]The”>http://dartreview.com/archives/1998/01/14/strange_stuff_at_harvard.php)
<a href=“http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~dnd/archivedissues/spring1997.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~dnd/archivedissues/spring1997.pdf</a></p>
<p>1of42, this might be the first time I’ve actually agreed with you!!</p>
<p>I don’t know what Harvard’s facilities are like, but I’ll base it off what we have here at SEMO. If they decided that the North Rec was only open to a certain group of people, sure the others could just go to the South Rec. Sounds fair? Well, hope the “others” didn’t want to play raquetball, lift free weights, or rock climb. But those “others” can just come back later; no big deal.</p>
<p>[Katherine</a> Kersten: Normandale’s ‘meditation room’ is home to a single faith](<a href=“http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/12551256.html]Katherine”>http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/12551256.html) </p>
<p>[UM-Dearborn</a> awash in foot bath controversy - News](<a href=“http://media.www.themichiganjournal.com/media/storage/paper255/news/2007/06/19/News/UmDearborn.Awash.In.Foot.Bath.Controversy-2916347.shtml]UM-Dearborn”>http://media.www.themichiganjournal.com/media/storage/paper255/news/2007/06/19/News/UmDearborn.Awash.In.Foot.Bath.Controversy-2916347.shtml) </p>
<p>Here’s two more things that Muslims have expected and US higher education institutions have given them. I’ll almost guarantee there’d be an uproar if these sorts of things were for the Catholics or the Bapists.</p>
<p>Give an inch; they take a mile…</p>
<p>Oh, and apparently those 6 who wanted this time haven’t even used it!!!</p>
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<p>You’re right, my argument would be flawed if this were an issue of the majority removing the rights of a minority. In that case, the size of the minority really doesn’t matter, and if you asked me if something like that was OK you would get a definitive no from me.</p>
<p>But this debate is about whether a minority should take rights away from the minority. And since almost everyone who agrees with the new policy argues some flavor of “well, it’s only a small inconvenience, why not accommodate?”, I thought I would point out that it’s also only a (very) small group who wants the change. Even if I agreed in principle with the idea that discrimination like this is all right if its not inconvenient, the ridiculously small size of the group of girls wanting the change would still make me think it wasn’t worth it.</p>
<p>Hanna: It is good to see that Harvard is so accommodating. You will note, however, that that individual was given only a marginally special accommodation, since that floor is indeed used to house regular students, and they all benefit from that bathroom arrangement; furthermore, the alumni interviewer was fired because he was being discriminatory towards that young man (woman?). Again, this is the crux of the issue; I’m not objecting to these girls getting an accommodation from discrimination - but that’s not what this is. Their accommodation is in itself discrimination, and that is what I object to.</p>
<p>hops_scout: It might be, at that. ;)</p>
<p>With regards to the two articles you posted, the first is absolutely disgusting, and if I were on that campus I would be going with my female friends to do a Wiccan handfast or something in that room every opportunity I got. And if I experienced discrimination from anyone there, the university would be hearing about it. And by hearing about it, I mean from my lawyer.</p>
<p>The second article, though, I don’t view as particularly eregious. That is merely a matter of pragmatism: Muslim students were abusing the facilities. Since you clearly can’t decree that they stop (how would you enforce that?) the most pragmatic thing to do is just install some foot baths and avoid the issue.</p>