Yes, and helpful, strategic info it is but different than refusing to let a student apply somewhere.
When S2 wrote his Extended Essay for IB (research paper), there was no teacher review of drafts. He had to submit an outline and that was it. I would have given body parts for a teacherâs review of a draft; he got so bogged down and stressed that he developed migraines.
He was able to use secondary sources only if he couldnât locate primary, and did so, as some of the primary docs were in other languages.
His 5th grade English class had to write a research paper (5-7 pages). Middle school humanities program had them write a 10 page and check cites with TurnItIn.
@CountingDown that is unfortunate. My daughter was required to submit a draft of the EE. Maybe even 2.
Never meant to imply that this or any school would refuse to allow someone to apply. Of course anyone is free to apply. The point is what good does it do to apply if the school councilor does not truly support the applicant in the recommendation? If this is the case you are effectively blocked. I admit to interpreting the dropping of P and V from the list as a subtle message from the school that those schools are no longer going to happen and weâre not going to support you. This was an assumption on my part and I could well be incorrect. The school on the one hand saying we are you flagging for inadvertent academic misconduct but hey donât worry we will write you a nice supportive letter explaining the situation seems a little disingenuous.
I think sheâs probably better off with an explanation and letter of support from the school sheâs in now rather than having to explain why she left and repeated junior year somewhere else. That sounds like an expulsion over something more serious.
I know it happens, but itâs just something else that needs to be explained. Sheâs in a box.
Re: #169
The student will still have to include academic records from all high schools attended when applying to college. If the current high school lists what it sees as misconduct on the transcript, that will follow her to all college applications, regardless of whether she stays there or transfers to a different high school.
@ucbalumnus You are correct on this point. Itâs never truly a fresh start as the records follow but a repeat year of great grades and keeping oneâs nose clean could IMO offer some rehab. Concern about the optics of transferring are valid. Finally got around to reading the middle of the thread. It sounds like OP has already decided to have her daughter stay. Tough situation.
So if OPâs daughter doesnât get in to Ivy or Vandy, she will be like 95% of other applicants. Am I missing something here? I donât get the melodrama.
The OP, a former trustee, will not pull her kids out of this program as she has bought into the âelite prep schoolâ mentality hook, line and sinker; with an Ivy or bust approach to an education no matter how difficult it may be on her kid(s).
What really concerns me is is sheâs more worried about what the adminstration of the school will think over her own kidâs academic and mental health but I guess she knew this when placing the kids into this type of pressure cooker environment, sink or swim baby. As someone said, if you cannot be an advocate for your kids, who will?. And then the suggestion to retake junior year, what the heck? Maybe we have lost some perspective along the wayâŚ
When I read this thread all I could think about was thank god we chose a different route for our kids (public schools, in a great school district). My two kids may never get into an ivy and have to âsettleâ for a UC (the horrors) but I can guarantee you they will have had a wonderful, positive HS experience and look back at this important time in their life with some great memories spent with supportive family and friends.
You can guarantee nothing of the sort, @socaldad2002. We all make what we think are the right decisions for our own kids. No reason to criticize any one elseâs decision, just as I wouldnât question how you could possibly place your kid in Calif public schools. Many of the things that happen in high school are not within our control,there are no guarantees anywhere, and we are all doing the best we can. Peace.
@roycroftmom you really think the OP will pull all of her kids out of this school, the one where she has had her kids there since K and believed in it so much that she was a trustee? She has made excuses for the schoolâs behavior throughout this thread, thrown her daughter under the bus (i.e. D should have known better), wants her to repeat junior year even though she has a twin in her current grade, isnât too concerned that her daughter is getting only 3 hours sleep evey night for the last 2 weeks, etc. but maybe Iâm completely off base hereâŚand donât know what I am talking about.
Again, when I read this thread it just made me sad for this kid and Iâm going to give my own D20 a big hug tonight when I get homeâŚ
You do what you think is best for your kid, she does the same for hers. I promise there are people equally appalled that you would put your kid in a Calif public school if you did not have to do so. Your kid clearly wouldnât stay at this school, quite likely her kid would not thrive at yours. There is no one school that fits all children.
On balance, OP seems to be satisfied overall with the school, and apparently many others are too as they have competitive admissions for relatively few highly expensive slots. Junior year is tough anywhere, and not always a great way to judge the fit of a school. Maybe the school worked well before and/or after junior year. I do not know a single person, in any state, who did not find junior year hard and stressful. In any event, OP wasnât unhappy until the present incident, so it is only a question of whether this,alone,warrants leaving.
I think thatâs unfair. socaldad2002. What âIvy or Bust?â
Per OP, âHer original college list is UPenn, Vandy, Emory, Tulane, UVA, College of William and Mary and UT Austin.â Looks pretty reasonable for a starter list. And she does say she spoke with the GC. itâs not unusual for parents to make school decisions based on an entirety of an experience.
I donât know who took P and V off the list. But OP has said sheâd like to reduce the rat race aspects in college choices.
You find that so heinous?
@socaldad2002 OP here, I frequently tell me 5 kids to be quick to understand and slow to judge. Maybe you should take the same advice. My oldest just graduated from another school a couple weeks ago. I made my twins go through a full high school admissions process for high school when they were in 8th grade. I took them to visits, interviews, revisit days to where they were accepted and they applied to separate schools. Although they both have been doing well academically, athletically and socially I have given them opportunities to leave at any point. The one who is having an issue with her paper was accepted to The Mountain School for this spring semester, she chose to stay. I have given them the option to transfer out every year, they have no interest. Right now my hear breaks for my daughter and Iâm try to be supportive. That said, she did make a citation mistake which takes up close to two full pages. I donât think it was intentional yet the consequence will stay with her through the admissions college admissions process. She does not want to repeat her junior year but I wanted to give her that option. My two younger kids will not stay for the upper school division at their upper school, Iâm not sure why you are so convinced I will not pull them out?
This may help posters better understand the situation, perhaps.
(PAA) Andover 2019 Bluebook
ACADEMIC EXPECTATIONS AND POLICIES 3
When a student fails to meet Academy expectations of academic integrity, the instructor, consulting with the deans, determines the level of the infraction based on knowledge of the full context in which the infraction occurred. The levels of infraction are as follows:
⢠Level 1 infractions: âFailure to follow instructionsâ
⢠Level 2 infractions: âFailure to adequately cite the work of othersâ
⢠Level 3 infractions: âAcademic dishonestyâ
While the deans will draw on their experience of similar cases to help ensure consistency in applying these levels of infraction to each individual case, interested parties who are not employed by the Academyâincluding parents and guardiansâ play no role in making this determination.
Level 1 infractions do not invoke a formal disciplinary response. They are recorded on a form maintained by the Deansâ Office.
Level 2 infractions also are recorded on a form maintained by the Deansâ Office; however, Level 2 infractions require that the student meet with a dean, who will issue a formal letter of discipline.
Level 3 infractionsâcases of academic dishonestyâmay result in the student sitting before the Disciplinary Committee.
Level 2 and Level 3 infractions also may carry an academic penalty (for example, a grade of 0, a lesser grade penalty, or a required redo of an assignment or paper), to be determined by the instructor and deans.
Students are required to read and be familiar with the contents of the online Academic Integrity Primer. If a student is unsure about how a particular provision of the primer pertains to a particular course, the student should discuss the matter with the instructor at the beginning of the course.
To me it seems they feel this may be a serious level 2 violation. I donât know for sure. At least at PA the whole citing issue seems important enough to have its own category out of only 3 in total.
@karen0, just curious, where you able to sit down with her teacher and principal and review the paper and their marking of it? Are you considering some kind of appeal or peer review? Or is it basically a closed case now?
@privatebanker Very helpful thank you.
@scholarme Today i spoke to her schoolâs college councilor to understand implications on admissions cycle. Today I aalso got a copy of her paper, where her teacher highlighted the areas of concern. She had 82 sources but she failed to submit 2 more, which may sound minor but the mis citations were close to 2 full pages of content. Also, one of the sources she omitted was not scholarly. From looking at the body of work I just donât think she had the stamina to finish 100% strong. I understand, Iâm not angry but Iâm disappointed on her behalf because she did months of solid research, is a strong writer but tying it all together was more challenging than imagined⌠Silver lining, she may be admissible to an Ivy but I think we all see that she will do wonderful things and be much happier on a campus which is slightly less intense. It;s a tough way to figure it out, but glad she has more clarity.
@karen0 Thanks for the update. Based on what you write, it does sound like what @privatebankerâs list stated is a level 2 infraction. I would still push to make sure that what she has in her record is fairly bad citation practice, not plagiarism. It wasnât an attempt at academic theft, but extremely sloppy citation work.
I do agree with you, that anything that would reduce pressure on her would be good.
@privatebanker thanks for providing this information.
That said, I notice that very few people here have objected to the standards quoted, or to the accompanying disciplinary measures.
"Level 1 infractions do not invoke a formal disciplinary response. They are recorded on a form maintained by the Deansâ Office.
"Level 2 infractions also are recorded on a form maintained by the Deansâ Office; however, Level 2 infractions require that the student meet with a dean, who will issue a formal letter of discipline.
"Level 3 infractionsâcases of academic dishonestyâmay result in the student sitting before the Disciplinary Committee.
âLevel 2 and Level 3 infractions also may carry an academic penalty (for example, a grade of 0, a lesser grade penalty, or a required redo of an assignment or paper), to be determined by the instructor and deans.â
Unless I have missed it, none of this covers the issue that has caused such an uproar here: that the student, to quote the OP, will be âcharged with academic misconduct which will be on her transcript.â
I have never heard of such a severe punishment for incorrectly citing a secondary source in the place of a primary source, nor have I heard of the use of this particular punishment for anything less than actual academic dishonesty. Placing this charge directly on the transcript â the one element of the application that is scrutinized by every institution of higher education â is far worse than a letter of discipline or even sitting before the committee, IMHO.
This thread has been both interesting and painful to follow, and I have been extraordinarily sympathetic with the OP and her daughter. K-12 education, even in the later years and even at the most âeliteâ of institutions, should include opportunities to constructively learn from mistakes. Personally, I see the policy that the OP has described to be a form of destructive learning â potentially even changing the trajectory of DDâs life.
Just to say: I believe it is better for a student to have an excellent transcript on the one hand, but a disciplinary letter accompanied by letters of faculty/administration support on the other. A mark on the transcript permanently impacts the transcript itself, even if letters of support are also submitted alongside the overall college application. I remain astounded that any high school would discipline students in such a manner for this infraction.
In the end, I think there is an important lesson here about making sure that one understands an institutionâs policies, and the spirit behind them, prior to enrollment. I understand that the OP, as a former trustee of the school, did seem to understand and therefore accepts the situation as it is. Personally, I would not permit my child to be educated at an institution that seems focused on destructive rather than constructive discipline, no matter what percent of the student body ends up at an Ivy. So many students today are diligent, honest, and absolutely terrified of making a mistake â and this thread is a perfect example of why. Mistakes are human (and very different from true plagiarism or other academic dishonesty) and we should strive to support the coming generation in ways that donât have the potential to demolish their future for a single error such as secondary source citation.
My $0.02.
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** Edited to say that I composed this while OP was writing her update, so had not seen it. It sounds like there were two citation omissions in addition to (or instead of?) the much-discussed secondary source citation. Either which way, Iâm going to leave this post as-is, because my general opinion is the same. Omitting citations is much more serious than citing secondary sources in place of primary, however. With this new information, I still would support discipline in the form of a disciplinary letter, accompanied by the faculty/administration letters of support (that OP has said are coming) rather than the mark on the studentâs actual transcript.