Again, the issue is that, at least based on the OP’s Daughter’s story, the school is charging the D with academic dishonesty/plagiarism, when there was no such thing. Consequences should match the action taken, not the action that the school imagined that she took. The school should not be reporting an infraction that did not actually take place.
If we were talking about the D getting a bad grade on the paper because of sloppiness, and this was hurting her GPA, it would be one thing - if the syllabus/class rubric states that this is the point penalty for such an error, that’s what it is.
However, a charge of academic misconduct is another story entirely. I would not consider citing a secondary source as a primary source as plagiarism even if I was reviewing an academic article for publication, UNLESS the secondary source was written by the author of the article.
I do agree, though, that the OP should wait until Monday and get a clarification from the school before deciding what to do. Her D may be misreporting what happened or what the school said it would do.
How you view the charge isn’t relevant. How the school and teacher view it is determinative, and in most elite private schools, such matters are run all the way up the chain before the parents/student are notified, so the administration presents a unified front. By all means contact the school for further explanation, but do not expect a different outcome. Focus on helping your kid overcome this and model resiliency. A letter of apology to the teacher is a good idea too. You need to keep your good references there.
I asked my daughter, also a junior this year, about the rules regarding citation they were taught in her AP Lit class this year (also had massive research paper as assignment but only 25 pages). I specifically asked her how her teacher would have reacted to the facts as presented in the OPs recitation of what happened to her daughter.
My daughter immediately said that this would be considered plagiarism at her school as well (which could have led to suspension, expulsion from the AP class, or failing to class). I then found out that my daughter has had several very detailed conversations about plagiarism in general, and specifically how it pertained to proper citation from middle school to this year, with this subject being discussed in every English class each year. In fact, I learned more about plagiarism this morning than I learned back when I was in school.
I am sure this is a very painful situation for the OP and her daughter. I agree with the other posters to make sure your daughter knows how much you love her and how much you believe she can recover from mistakes and poor judgment. I also believe that the OPs daughter sounds just as wonderful as so many children do on this site…I am often reminded of how many amazing students there are out there when I read different CC threads.
What I also hope it that you do not try to minimize or excuse this instance of plagiarism. As with so many other instances in life…it is how something is reacted to that becomes almost more important than the original situation. Regardless of intent, your daughter plagiarized. She and the school seem to agree that the school’s reading of what happened is accurate. It sounds like she has learned how seriously her school takes plagiarism and from her reaction, it seems like she will be much more aware in the future.
She will still be able to go to a great school for college (there are more than just the top 20! And she can do awesome things at schools outside the top 20!). She will be able to re-write the paper (it sounds like) and get a grade for the class. She has the opportunity to learn that consequences are real (and can also be lived with) which is a very important lesson for every person to learn. Dealing with these consequences with grace (accepting responsibility while also not catastrophizing the outcome) can be a huge growing up and learning experience for her.
Sending you both hugs and grace, good luck with moving forward…it sounds like the school is doing a lot to both uphold its honor code while also helping your daughter move forward from this experience.
“Her school is giving her the opportunity to rewrite the 30 pages over the summer so there will not be academic implications.”
A simple question. Why would she need to rewrite the 30 page paper if the only error was a citation? Wouldn’t she just add the appropriate source?
I would ask to review the actual paper. This sounds like the school is treating the 2 page (3 paragraphs) not as an incorrectly citation but as if the content was presented by your daughter as original thought. Sorry either way but hard to understand the school’s position in the absence of you as the parent actually having reviewed the passages in question.
One good thing about CC is you have certainly received opinions that range the whole gamut.
When I had recommended moving your D from the school I didn’t realize that she has a twin sister who is also a Junior there. That definitely complicates things. It’s never good to move a Junior unless there is a strong reason to, and the twin is thriving, so it seems unfair to move her. I thought there was a good reason for your D to move, which was to go to an environment that was better suited to her, to have her repeat her Junior year to primarily gain some maturity, with the added benefits of more time to make friends, more time to know the new teachers for LORs, and more time to put this incident behind her. Knowing how siblings compare themselves, though, it could actually be a bigger knock to your D’s self-esteem to fall a year behind her twin, or to feel like she couldn’t hack it at the school her twin is doing so well at.
At this point, it’s all about creating resiliency and strength for your D.
It seems like you’ve decided that the best choice for your D is to keep her at her current school and have her graduate next year. A couple of thoughts if you go this route:
*Keep reaffirming to your D that this is not the end of the world. She can put this behind her.
*As you know from your older child, Senior year is very busy. Watch her courseload.
*What about a gap year for your D after HS to gain more maturity? I found that my kid grew up A LOT Senior year, but nonetheless a gap year between HS and college doing something very interesting could still be a big benefit to your D. It would have to be something that would really speak to her and work on her skills, so that she would see this as a strong positive rather than feeling like a loser when her twin goes off to college.
*A big part of the LORs will be that your D has been an exemplary student and has only made one mistake. This now puts your D on warning that she has to be on exemplary behavior. No involvement in Senior Prank Day, and no drinking at Prom etc (of course she couldn’t before anyway, but now it’s even more important).
I think you were spot-on when you were saying that your D needs to re-evaluate how she wants to lead her life. Cull her college list carefully to decide on what will give her a balanced life.
If she determines that she does not want the stress of being in the most elite environment, that might be hard for her to accept because she is every bit as smart as her siblings and from what I could glean from your posts your family culture is one of highest level of achievement. She might need counseling to accept that a different path is every bit as valuable as another path, and doesn’t mean she is a loser. Of course you are not signalling anything negative to her, but as you know kids are hugely influenced by their peers and she is in an environment that has different expectations, and she might think if she follows a less prestigious path than her older sibling and her twin that she’s somehow less than them. It’s hard for a kid this age to realize that different paths have value, and that some of the best contributions are by people who slow things down and see things from a different perspective.
See if you can put her in an environment where she can have some wins this summer. After a grueling Junior year and now this, it sounds like she can use some.
Plaster a smile on your face and keep involved in the school. And have your D do the same. It’s critical that they are incentivized to write the best possible LORs. It’s much easier to do this when you like the people and want to help them.
Even though I said keep involved with the school, I’d be quietly looking for a new school for my younger kids for at least HS, maybe even for the year after your twins graduate. I have a better understanding now of your D’s HS’ position, but I still feel like it is too punitive and I’d want a more nurturing environment for my other children.
I have read every post on this thread. I find it fascinating and horrifying and I’m no stranger to elite schools and harsh rules that, by the way, are not applied equally across the board, regardless of what the school says. One of my daughters failed to hand in work when it was due and she lost a grade each day it was late, ending in a failed assignment. I didn’t intervene. She knew the rules, she didn’t follow them, she suffered the consequences. That’s appropriate. Perhaps I am not appreciating the facts and am unaware of the context but based purely on what’s been shared, this seems very different.
As @MWolf said upthread, it is one thing to term this an error in citation and dock the grade or require a rewrite and quite another to label it plagiarism and academic dishonesty. Surely there is a means to distinguish between a student who deliberately appropriates material and passes it off as his own and a student who cites a source improperly. Labeling it “unintentional” plagiarism doesn’t help IMO. A black mark on the transcript or in the counselor’s letter to colleges seems excessively unfair and I don’t care what school she is considering. In fact, I’m not even thinking about it from the college admissions standpoint. I would simply never want a charge of dishonesty associated with me or with my children if it was untrue.
And let me be clear about the process this school appears to be requiring. In 9th grade it’s permissible to share drafts for comments but by 11th, it’s no longer permitted? Is that really true? My youngest just finished her undergraduate education at an elite college where she wrote a lengthy thesis. I am sure she made mistakes of all sorts-including citation form- in the process and corrected them along the way. She met with her advisor every week and shared drafts with him. He responded with comments and direction. The notion that an 11th grade student is somehow so accomplished that she no longer needs to share drafts has me scratching my head. Writing is a labor intensive activity that begs for draft sharing and editing and this remains true long past 11th grade. My college senior did it. My older daughter does it as an editor for a national media outlet. I did it as a law student writing a note and later as an attorney. The judge for whom I clerked had us checking galleys to make sure that every single citation was correct and current. No one and I mean ** no one ** is perfect and everyone benefits from others’ review.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there were no drafts, just a final paper by 11th grade, particularly if the required pages was 20-25, and the student merely exceeded that a bit here. While drafts may be expected for a lengthy thesis, shorter papers may or may not have them by this grade. I expect that the citation error may be quite glaring, even if arguably unintentional. Although most posters have focused on how mean the school is, it is quite possible it is being kind in view of the circumstances. We don’t know, and never will.
Sure. We don’t have all the facts at our disposal. I’m sure you are right that the error was glaring or that the teacher was familiar with the source and it jumped out.
I can only say that at my children’s high schools, both of which were private and elite and one of which was stodgy and proud of its long standing presence in the US, drafts were always encouraged and sometimes required, and it was true for papers of any length. The idea was that writing was a skill developed over a long period of time and always helped along by a willing editor with a red pen.
I agree that I prefer that model, but I am not shocked that by 11th grade not all schools utilize drafts. Many colleges expect only polished final pieces, so perhaps this was preparation for that. Just as we dont have all the facts, realistically, neither does the mom at this point. It is hard for an accused student to be an objective reporter.
True enough. The first thing for the mom to do is help her daughter calm down and together, sort out the facts. At that point, the two of them can figure out what’s next.
Yes. Colleges do expect final polished pieces. Do they also expect these polished final pieces without offering assistance in getting from point A to point B? This is not a snarky question. I honestly don’t know of any school up or down the competitive ladder that doesn’t offer tutoring, a writing center, office hours, TAs etc to assist with writing. There is assistance out there post-11th grade all the way through adulthood, and a high school that (seemingly proudly) prohibits drafts in 11th grade does not leave me oohing and ahhing over its excellence. Far from it.
@3girls3cats My daughter’s 25 page paper written his year had quite a bit of teacher input on the outline (that was done in stages in Jan/Feb) but after input on the detailed outlines built over a series of weeks with firm due dates - the actual written paper was supposed to be done solo.
This doesn’t mean that students couldn’t ask for and get reviews of drafts…what it meant was that the teacher was NOT going to imposed multiple due dates to help students plan their time wisely on actually writing the paper. Some students figured out that time management was an important skill on this task, some procrastinated and had fewer (or no reviews) of their papers before they were due.
In my experience, colleges do not necessarily expect perfect, polished papers without any assistance. However, I think many colleges (especially highly competitive ones) do expect that the students who matriculate will have many of the skills that lead to success upon arrival; good time management, proactively asking for assistance, figuring out where the writing center is, attending office hours, etc. etc.
@beebee3, yes, you’re quite right that time management is a key issue. I If a student doesn’t avail himself of the resources offered by the school and is writing the entire thing the night before, well, that’s a whole 'nother story. (Trust me, there are kids at highly competitive colleges who have not yet developed time management skills, lol. ) I’m merely reacting to the school’s position that by 11th grade it’s all supposed to be figured out and that the need for draft reviews is moot. I can’t wrap my head around that sort of thinking. Not requiring them? Sure. Not imposing multiple due dates for review? Also sensible. But not allowing them because these kids have it all together and are supposedly writing at a grad school level? They know better.
Obviously, the paper has to be written solo! I hope I wasn’t implying that getting feedback meant that the teacher was rewriting the paper or even correcting the citations directly. What I meant was that a teacher (or prof or tutor) will tell the writer where her writing is unclear or where an idea needs further development, where the arguments need better support…and where a citation looks off.
My D also wrote a thesis this year and she was at a T20 college. She met weekly with her advisor where they went over her drafts, discussed what worked and what didn’t and I know that she spent tons of time going over citations. She was a senior in college. Requiring this level of sophistication from a high school student with no additional guidance is just asking for trouble. And again, the fact that this student DID include a citation- just not a primary one - says to me, Hey, do better work! But man, that is not the dishonesty that falls under the rubric of plagiarism or copyright infringement or anything of the sort.
@3girls3cats I hear you on time management being an issue even at the most competitive colleges, lol.
My point was more…it will bite you in the butt because the expectation is that students can and will manage time at college. There are plenty of students who hit the procrastination ‘wall’ when getting to those schools because it is the first time they haven’t been able to white-knuckle something the night before based solely on intelligence. Saw plenty of that at college when I was there and for those who had always had a spotless record at high school, had always been able to ‘pull it off’, hitting the wall at a highly competitive college was as messy as a Formula 1 accident.
I am always trying to re-frame situations to find the silver lining (it drives my children crazy) but I think there is a huge opportunity here for the OPs daughter to learn so much from this situation. And learning this before college is a huge gift; she has the time to both fix this specific situation and the ability to address it in her applications proactively. I think there are plenty of schools that would find a student taking responsibility and thoughtfully reflecting on what was learned in this situation to be exactly the kind of students they would want on their campus.
@karen0 Reading this thread has been heartbreaking.
First, I am so sorry that your family is going through this. Kids make mistakes and they should be allowed to make them and learn from them without dire consequences like this. I think if you try to help your daughter navigate this you are doing what parents should do support them. You have already acknowledged that what she did was wrong and it was a mistake but it the consequences don’t seem to fit the act. You wouldn’t be asking them to act like it never happened just come up with a better solution.
My kiddo went to a elite private school in CA where over 30% of the students go to Elite and Ivy schools. They got support and help from teachers when they needed it , what are you paying for if they aren’t willing to guide the kids? You can bet your bottom dollar I would be in there with your D trying to find a better solution. For all that you have given to that school in time and I’m sure money they at least owe you a meeting and a discussion. The pressure these kids are under these days is insane and mental health is a real issue. These schools that are pressure cookers don’t help anything. I would feel differently if she had actual tried to pass off work as as her own but that’s not the case. What you would be teaching her is to fight for yourself when you think you have been unfairly punished or wronged.
If you aren’t going to advocate for your child then who will?
I hope that your daughter realizes how much you love her and support her, even when she makes a mistake like they all do at some point. I am sending you good thoughts and luck in this situation and hope it turns out for your D.
@roycroftmom No drafts were required or part of the grade. Students are not allowed to bring a draft to their teacher. Students had the opportunity to submit an outline which my dd did and received vague feedback on direction. It sounds like a large percentage of the grade had tutors help them with each step of the writing process. One mom I spoke to with older kids said this paper is impossible to do without a tutor given the workload in all the other classes. With the exception of standardized test prep., my kids don’t use tutors. Yes, my kids will be well prepared for college but not so sure the stress is worth it.
Agree with above posters that pretty much all top colleges offer writing centers at a minimum where a student can take a draft of a paper for review. Now… I’m not sure that would have caught this type of citation error. But they may have a checklist of questions to go over with the student, and the student might realize that they needed to validate this portion of the paper. They generally won’t look for typos, either (nor should a prof or TA if they look at a draft, honestly). The support is more for structure, readability, etc. So colleges aren’t expecting student to do this with no support.
Maybe you could suggest this for her school - that they add some kind of writing center. Possibly staffed by the stronger jr/sr writers, with an English teacher supervisor and mentor for that staff. My kid’s college writing center was staffed by students. They picked them out of the best writers in the freshman seminar classes, and asked them to take a semester class (for credit) to learn to be writing tutors. My D did it. It was actually a paid job on campus to work in the center. Not sure a HS would pay, but just saying that it isn’t an impossible idea for a HS. (Heck, have your D get this off the ground, and she’d really have something good to say about what came out of a bad experience… just a thought).